[Owasp-testing] Are the Risk Rating Wiki Pages Broken?

Christian Heinrich christian.heinrich at cmlh.id.au
Wed Aug 28 04:48:42 UTC 2013


Pete,

I would appreciate if you could consolidate the multiple threads you
have created on the OWASP Testing Guide Mailing List around the same
subject into a single thread if you have something more to add.

Also Raoul, Ty (once his new e-mail address is known) and Michael are
more then welcome to subscribe to the mailing list as per the simple
instructions listed at
https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-testing which I assume
is the reason that these multiple threads are created as you left off
one or more e-mail addresses?


On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 1:30 AM, Pete Herzog <lists at isecom.org> wrote:
> Hi Christian,
>
> On 8/27/2013 2:09 AM, Christian Heinrich wrote:
>
>> The link to the CVSS-SIG is prominently displayed on the left side of
>> the http://www.first.org/ homepage
>
> Can you provide me the link to the document as I still can't find it.
> I found a presentation, a letter, and some stuff but not the CVSSv3
> document itself.
>
>>
>> OWASP has also followed a similar "secret" process as
>> perhttp://lists.owasp.org/pipermail/owasp-topten/2013-January/000831.html
>>
>
> How is it secret if anyone can join? If I hold a party in a room and
> invite everyone as long as they bring something or help set the tables
> is it a secret party because you didn't come?
>
>>
>> Yes, I have been familiar with OSSTMM since release v2 (maybe earlier)
>> from memory.  The reason that I walked away from it was that it was
>> full of self righteous statements related to ethics and "Hacking
>> Exposed" has more technical content while being what is a
>> sensationalised publication (i.e. "Hacking Exposed").
>
> There'll always be haters. But what you point to is the Rules of
> Engagement which were designed to protect the tester not force ethics
> on them. You don't have to follow them to do an OSSTMM test but they
> will help you as a security professional. Too often pen testers were
> caught in Catch22 situations where they did their job but the
> remediation wasn't done or some contract details were missing, or the
> client made the scope too narrow and then there were problems, the
> company gets hacked, and people point and say, XYZ did our security!
> And XYZ signed an NDA that doesn't let them refute or explain that
> they tested under restrictions or had nothing to do with remediation.
>
> Anyway, we never wanted to compete with hacking exposed. We're a
> research organization looking for the best way to test and analyze
> operations to secure them. That's enough work without trying to detail
> how to exploit each bug that might not even be a technology in use
> tomorrow.
>
>>
>> Neither would the markings of both "Alpha" and "Draft" convince me to
>> read your webappsec methodology since it doesn't have the same peer
>> reviewed contributors as the OWASP Testing Guide,
>> http://mdsec.net/wahh/, etc.
>
> Okay. Sorry we lost you then.
>
>>
>> Raoul Chiesa and I know each other from presenting at the same
>> conference in Europe. Coincidently he want me to replace
>> http://msmvps.com/blogs/spywaresucks/archive/2011/12/10/1803461.aspx
>> as the Australian representative for  http://www.isecom.org/team.html
>> because of their well known lack of skill.
>
> I like Ty and I think he's a capable tester. You posting a link to a
> blog where someone states their opinion doesn't prove a "well known
> lack of skill". And Raoul has never said anything to me about this but
> I'm happy to include him here (in CC). I can't imagine he said to
> replace Ty as we don't "replace" people on the team, we grow it.
> Because we can all learn things from each other.
>
> The link you post about Ty's skill again goes back to what I said
> about that Catch 22. I don't know details or have access to the
> confidential security reports as you apparently do but when I see that
> I see so many possibilities where someone got it wrong that I don't
> immediately blame the tester. There's the scope of the test,
> restrictions on types of tests, remediation, etc. I just hope you
> never find yourself in that situation as it can happen to ANY tester.
>
>> After watching the heckling from the audience at
>> http://www.sector.ca/speakers2008.htm#Pete_Herzog I can't see the
>> additional value in travelling to North Carolina.  I believe the
>
> I'm just so glad they didn't do it out loud as that would have thrown
> me off my presentation! I didn't even know about it. It was hard
> enough since I was presenting on the New New Thieves, which was based
> on work that Raoul Chiesa (you mentioned above as your endorsement)
> pioneered with the United Nations for profiling hackers.
>
>
>> positive reviews of the North Carolina event are attributed to Michael
>> Menefee not disclosing his conflict of interest i.e.
>> http://www.isecom.org/team.html.
>
> Mike joined ISECOM about a month after that event. I don't see how
> that's a conflict of interest to invite me as a speaker either though.
> As an example of what might be a conflict of interest is someone
> trying to shut down OWASP risk metrics because of their work CVSS v3.
> But that's just an opinion too.
>
>>
>> This endorsement of the OWASP Risk Rating Methodology is the similar
>> to that from people who believe vulnerability assessment is a
>> different name of penetration testing and therefore consider OSSTMM as
>> a creditable body of knowledge.
>
> I really don't follow that line of thinking. But I do believe nobody
> sits on all the great ideas- no person and no group. I think people
> should work in the areas they see they can improve because of their
> specialized knowledge and even if it's not a flawless body of work,
> there are still likely to be some worthwhile ideas in it. Having
> worked with attack surface metrics on web apps I know it is hard and
> so I'm interested to see how another approaches it. And that's how
> science works.
>
> OSSTMM is neither vuln testing or pen testing. It's a methodology
> which shows that no matter what you call what you do, you need to get
> XYZ intelligence from it so you know where your problems are. If you
> can do that with a vuln scanner or a red team or a magic wand, that's
> okay.
>
>
>>
>> Due to criticisms of OSSTMM from multiple parties with no relationship
>> to each other (hence no collusion) i.e.
>
> Research is supposed to have critics. That's how progress happens. And
> then whenever you put yourself out there, well, there'll always be
> haters. That's life.
>
>> http://infosecwarrior.wordpress.com/2011/05/25/ptes-penetration-testing-execution-standard/,
>> https://twitter.com/mhackling/status/46376971336290304, etc OWASP has
>> aligned itself with PTES too i.e.
>> https://twitter.com/indi303/status/78476821305360385 and
>> https://twitter.com/brennantom/status/78431000081858560.
>
> So some blog that makes up a percentage in passing about the OSSTMM
> and 3 twitter feeds is "multiple criticisms"? Your old drama teacher
> must be proud.
>
> Stop being so negative and so conflicted and just enjoy that there's
> so many people trying to figure out how best to secure the world.
> There's a lot of work to do so just do your thing and stop trying to
> block others from doing theirs.
>
> -pete.
>
>
> --
> Pete Herzog - Managing Director - pete at isecom.org
> ISECOM - Institute for Security and Open Methodologies
> www.isecom.org - www.osstmm.org
> www.hackerhighschool.org - www.badpeopleproject.org
>
> --
> Pete Herzog - Managing Director - pete at isecom.org
> ISECOM - Institute for Security and Open Methodologies
> www.isecom.org - www.osstmm.org
> www.hackerhighschool.org - www.badpeopleproject.org



-- 
Regards,
Christian Heinrich

http://cmlh.id.au/contact


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