[OWASP-TESTING] Comment on testing guide and contrib for part 2

Mark Curphey mark at curphey.com
Thu Jul 29 16:48:45 EDT 2004


Mauro,

This is great feedback. You are clearly a developer who speaks about
requirements and architecture and how testing (non-security) is or should be
a part of the developers life. This is exactly what we IMHO need to get
across in this project. A lot of the security community (even application
pen testers) are not from development backgrounds so are more familiar with
pen testing. If we all agree that testing should be part of the development
process then it needs to work with the other testing that is done such as
functional testing and regression testing etc . 

What this project set out to do was to help people build their own testing
program as a whole (holistic view) and understand what and how to test for
certain issues is a part of that.

FYI Part 1 was really meant to instill a simple high level management
message. To build a testing program there are a lot of techniques including
code review, manual inspection etc. Don't just think of testing as testing
deployed applications and pen testing. You need to test people, policy,
process AND technology. 

Part 2 will flesh that out into hard fast suggestions such as how to test
for SQL injection. 

The point of the above and SQL injection is a good one I think. If you see
in the design there were no data validation boundaries defined and then
parameterized stored procs were not used, you pretty much know you will have
a sql injection issue before you touch the code or pen test. If you look in
code and see dynamic queries being built of of url params again you know you
have an issue. You don't need a pen testers to stumble on the table names
;-) In your example below it sounds like you found this issue in code and
then proved it with pen testing. Is that right ?



-----Original Message-----
From: owasp-testing-admin at lists.sourceforge.net
[mailto:owasp-testing-admin at lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Mauro
Bregolin
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 4:09 PM
To: owasp-testing at lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [OWASP-TESTING] Comment on testing guide and contrib for part 2

[I'm posting from a different address since my address
mauro.bregolin at tiscali.it was rejected as its SMTP server was in the
"Spamcop RBL"...
guess I should change provider]
------------------------------------------------------

Hi to all,

I'm one of the relatively recently added folks who have yet to contribute
(needless to say, I was hit by Murphy's law and swamped by work as soon as I
subscribed to the list...)

Now, feeling guilty:

1. Comments on testing guide

I found the guide a bit unbalanced.
I think there are different assumptions when you write something addressed
to both when you have control over the software development life cycle and
when you test something already developed by others.
In the first case, test is a part of the development process and is under
control. You should have documentation about requirements,
architecture/design, code, etc.; your test cases should have been prepared
according to established test plans in order to verify adherence to
requirements (including security).
Now, talking about things like "software development life cycle", "threat
models", "code reviews", etc. is risky because there are tons of books which
do this.
I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's difficult to do it without being too
naive, or simplistic.
For example, UML is one of the prominent (if not
"the")
modeling methodology in use nowadays, but it's not the only one.
It's difficult to summarize good testing practices in a few pages, when
others have wrote piles of books on the subject.
Things are perhaps a bit simpler with grey/black box testing, where not much
information is available, or even with white box testing when performed
afterwards by external people (in the sense that only available
documentation is considered; you are somehow

constrained by what others have written/produced).
Just my 2c on the topic...

2. Contribution for part 2
I was wondering if you deem of interest inserting in part two some "case
studies".
With this I mean real-life situations worth of being thoroughly
explained/analyzed.
Personally I have one related to SQL Injection, which is in my opinion good
to show the dangers lying in seemingly minimal exposures.
Briefly stated, I found several examples (all at prominent organizations!)
of SQL injection vulnerabilities in authentication-related forms which
unfortunately granted no output to control where to "union" data fetched
from the DBMS via the injected query. Moreover, the DBMS involved (DB2,
Oracle) didn't allow fancy things like statement concatenation, nor the
invocation of a plethora of stored procedures like MS SQL Server does.
The only available indication regarding the injection was a binary
condition, essentially whether the query produced an empty versus a
non-empty result set.
Admittedly, not much, but enough to fetch data at will.
I coded a little java application to automate the process of submitting
injected requests (may provide the code as well if that's considered
helpful), with the result of:
a) automatically determining database schema information (table, columns,
datatypes etc.),
b) fetching data at will - compatibly with the DBMS account privileges.
In two cases determining the schema allowed to spot a table where credential
where stored - in clear, which allowed to grab them and access the service
with arbitrary credentials.
Needles to say, clients were quite impressed when they

saw it...

Let me know what you think...

Mauro Bregolin

>-- Messaggio Originale --
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:05:32 -0700
>From: owasp-testing-request at lists.sourceforge.net
>Subject: owasp-testing digest, Vol 1 #247 - 1 msg
>Reply-to: owasp-testing at lists.sourceforge.net
>To: owasp-testing at lists.sourceforge.net
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> 1. Part 1 Update and Session Token Testing Request
(Mark Curphey)
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:53:47 -0400
>From: "Mark Curphey"
>To:
>Subject: [OWASP-TESTING] Part 1 Update and Session
Token Testing Request
>
>Can someone please send me the great work (I forget
who did it)=A0on =
>black box testing session management / session
tokens? I would like to
=
>add it as an Appendix to Part 1 of an example of what
will be coming in
=
>Part 2.
>
>I spent time today reworking the main chapters about
techniques (manual
=
>inspections, code review, threat modeling and pen
testing). This was =
>because when we read through it as a whole document
after the tech =
>editor had his wicked way, some sections were just
far to detailed for
=
>this document. They will all be able to be
re-purposed for Part 2 so its
>=
>certainly not lost work.
>
>Larry and I will be updating Chapter 2 and the final
Framework Chapter
=
>tomorrow and we hope to then have a final draft for
you all to review by
>=
>the end of the week.
>
>Finally we maybe able to release this next week!
Yippee.
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>Mark
>
>PS What is the status of Part 2? Who is working on
what? Is there a =
>"table of contents"?
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
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>End of owasp-testing Digest



	
		
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