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    This sounds very reasonable to me, Johanna. <br>
    <br>
    If folks are willing to put the work in at GitHub or any other
    modern repository to build substantial application security content-
    then rock on. I am eager to see the fruits of your and others work.<br>
    <br>
    Best,<br>
    Jim<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/16/16 9:59 PM, johanna curiel
      curiel wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CACxry_3a-BaE8hbiUwW_ado0aNwwYYq=UbtniFyph-4kgJEeGg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">Hey Jim, no one has implied to delete the wiki .
        <div><br>
          <div>Just to provide these documentation projects an
            opportunity to start moving their content and make it more
            cohesive and sharing.</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>The wiki is the actual OWASP portal so before there is a
            full replacement it will take some years.</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>But as people work on more cohesive , collaborative way
            and managing content wise with Github markdown as proposed
            by Gary, I believe that you can take out a lot of redundant
            content and automatically, this will become 'obsolete'. A
            lot of the possibilities of exporting content and
            collaboration are much better with Github markdown (such as
            transforming content automatically to other formats or
            reusing it). We start over on the Github.</div>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>We are planning to do the same with the Project's portal as
          the content has become unmanageable and not so user friendly.
          It does not support many of our necessary processes.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div> Like the legacy app, you can't just get rid off it from
          one day to another but it requires a transformation and
          migration ;-). </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Hope this clarifies the purpose and goal.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Cheers</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Johanna</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 12:48 AM, Jim
          Manico <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:jim.manico@owasp.org" target="_blank">jim.manico@owasp.org</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Johanna,<br>
              <br>
              There is plenty of good content on the wiki. I think
              "migration of content" is probably more realistic that
              "starting over". Just a thought, but please do as you wish
              as long as you do not delete the wiki. It's in heavy
              active use.<br>
              <br>
              Aloha,<br>
              - Jim
              <div>
                <div class="h5"><br>
                  <br>
                  <div>On 2/16/16 9:41 PM, johanna curiel curiel wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div dir="ltr"><span style="font-size:13px">>>I
                        do not think - at all - that starting over is a
                        good idea. There are thousands of hours of work
                        in the wiki that should not be so quickly
                        dismissed. And there are plenty of people still
                        actively working on the wiki.</span><br>
                      <div><span style="font-size:13px"><br>
                        </span></div>
                      <div>Jim, Jim... you sound like a dev in love with
                        his legacy ;-p. Sometimes, you need to kill your
                        darlings. I like hearing solutions and
                        unfortunately revising 8000+ content and hiring
                        skilled force for that is not feasible imho.</div>
                      <div><span style="font-size:13px"><br>
                        </span></div>
                      <div>I respect and understand your pov but the
                        documentation projects have their own set of
                        necessities and appropriate experts/authors to
                        carry on these task. Also, they have the
                        materials and scope that need proper revision.
                        If they start with these set of projects
                        (OpenSamm, Code Review, Developer guide,
                        Security Framework) and implement many of the
                        things in the Testing guide ,it will provide
                        cohesive content, something that we are missing
                        from the wiki. With the support of Security
                        Framework project leaders to manage the system,
                        I think this consider a feasible solution. </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>One that I think deserves the try.</div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                      <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at
                        12:30 AM, Jim Manico <span dir="ltr"><<a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:jim.manico@owasp.org"
                            target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jim.manico@owasp.org">jim.manico@owasp.org</a></a>></span>
                        wrote:<br>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
                          0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                          solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> I do
                            not think - at all - that starting over is a
                            good idea. There are thousands of hours of
                            work in the wiki that should not be so
                            quickly dismissed. And there are plenty of
                            people still actively working on the wiki.<br>
                            <br>
                            Keep in mind, starting over means folks need
                            to build all this new content from scratch.
                            It is not easy to find skilled folks to add
                            all that new content, which takes us back to
                            square one.<br>
                            <br>
                            One page at at a time. If you see any
                            content that is out of date, please continue
                            to inform me directly and I'll do something
                            about it as quickly as I can with the help
                            of the other editors who continue to work on
                            the wiki.<span><font color="#888888"><br>
                                <br>
                                - Jim</font></span>
                            <div>
                              <div><br>
                                <br>
                                <div>On 2/16/16 9:26 PM, johanna curiel
                                  curiel wrote:<br>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote type="cite">
                                  <div dir="ltr">>>Good stuff. I
                                    think the best way to approach this
                                    is to get a team to walk through our
                                    8000+ page wiki and categorise pages
                                    that need categorizing. <br>
                                    <div><span style="font-size:13px"><br>
                                      </span></div>
                                    <div>I believe in divide and conquer
                                      but also , at a certain moment,
                                      you need to focus on the
                                      approach. </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>I don't think walking through
                                      those 8000+ is realistic, cheap or
                                      feasible not even for a hired
                                      qualified team.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>I  think this problem is
                                      similar to having a very old, big,
                                      legacy application no one
                                      understands and no one wants to
                                      work with. What most business do? <br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><i>Start from scratch, a new
                                        one.</i></div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>I think the focus here is for
                                      documentation existing projects to
                                      markup their documents and work
                                      form there. Focusing on those
                                      8000+ is not feasible.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>As Jim said, the people that
                                      wants to edit seem  not to be <i>qualified</i>
                                      enough to edit and the people that
                                      are <i>qualified</i>, well, they
                                      do not have time nor feel like
                                      editing on the wiki ;-P</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                    <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb
                                      16, 2016 at 11:53 PM, Jim Manico <span
                                        dir="ltr"><<a
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="mailto:jim.manico@owasp.org"
                                          target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jim.manico@owasp.org">jim.manico@owasp.org</a></a>></span>
                                      wrote:<br>
                                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                        style="margin:0 0 0
                                        .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                        solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                        <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
                                          text="#000000"> Gary,<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Good stuff. I think the best
                                          way to approach this is to get
                                          a team to walk through our
                                          8000+ page wiki and categorize
                                          pages that need categorizing.
                                          That would "bucket" content as
                                          you suggested in prep for any
                                          move into "folders" (and make
                                          the wiki a better place as it
                                          is). We already have a wiki
                                          template system to help mark
                                          old or dead content ( <a
                                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Template:TaggedDocument"
                                            target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Template:TaggedDocument">https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Template:TaggedDocument</a></a>
                                          ) and wiki markup makes
                                          content categorization easy by
                                          adding a wiki category to any
                                          page.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          I am personally a big fan of
                                          the wiki and wiki-markup. I
                                          would hate to dump the many
                                          thousand people-years of work
                                          in there.<span><br>
                                            <br>
                                            > <b>Big downside</b>:
                                            there’s a large piece of
                                            work to start it off.  All
                                            content would need to get
                                            organized, put into sensible
                                            structure, converted to
                                            markdown, argued over,
                                            ‘experts’ defined and
                                            assigned, etc.  I doubt this
                                            would be a volunteer effort,
                                            and may need contractor
                                            involvement.  Could this be
                                            combined with the OWASP wiki
                                            redesign?<br>
                                            <br>
                                          </span> Yea, exactly. The
                                          process of trying to update
                                          the wiki (or at least handle
                                          dated content that others are
                                          concerned about) is already in
                                          place and some folks like
                                          myself and members the wiki
                                          editorial team have slowly
                                          been going over wiki content
                                          and trying to make it more
                                          honest on a page by page
                                          level. The problem is the
                                          sheer volume and the lack of
                                          tools to aid in the process.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Another problem is how do we
                                          hire? We need content folks
                                          who understand application
                                          security, these are not cheap
                                          hires. We've made the call for
                                          volunteers to help with wiki
                                          cleanup, but only found a few
                                          volunteers to help and only 2
                                          are active.  Any honestly, we
                                          need rather thoughtful and
                                          skilled volunteers who really
                                          get application security, and
                                          they are hard to find in 2016.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          I'm not sure what the best
                                          path is to handle the wiki
                                          mess before us, so in the
                                          meantime I'm crunching through
                                          one page at a time, one
                                          request at a time, and one
                                          cleanup at a time. If anyone
                                          wants to help accelerate this
                                          with hands-on help and
                                          assistance, I'm all ears and
                                          am eager for your help. In my
                                          experience a lot of folks have
                                          ideas and plans to make the
                                          wiki better, but very few are
                                          willing to do the work. I mean
                                          that respectfully, I
                                          understand how busy everyone
                                          is. <br>
                                          <br>
                                          I think the best kind of
                                          leadership is getting your
                                          hands dirty and leading by
                                          example. If you want to help
                                          dive in and start looking at
                                          the scope of the wiki problem
                                          with me, sign up at <a
                                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-wiki-editors"
                                            target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-wiki-editors">https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-wiki-editors</a></a>
                                          and introduce yourself and
                                          expand on your plan. I'd be
                                          glad to give you a tour around
                                          the wiki and show you whats
                                          up. I do not blame you if you
                                          bail. Several folks joined
                                          with enthusiastic desire to
                                          help, but then bailed once
                                          they saw the scope of the
                                          problem. In the meantime, one
                                          page at a time is all I got.
                                          :)<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Aloha,<br>
                                          Jim
                                          <div>
                                            <div><br>
                                              <br>
                                              <br>
                                              <br>
                                              <div>On 2/14/16 1:30 PM,
                                                Gary Robinson wrote:<br>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                          <blockquote type="cite">
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div dir="ltr">
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px">Hi
                                                    Folks,</p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px"> </p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px">I
                                                    want to reach out to
                                                    the leaders and
                                                    bring up the subject
                                                    of OWASP docs
                                                    projects, in fact
                                                    all OWASP
                                                    documentation
                                                    including wiki and
                                                    text available to
                                                    our code projects as
                                                    well.  I’ll try to
                                                    keep this e-mail
                                                    brief so won’t get
                                                    bogged in details,
                                                    but generally I want
                                                    to know if the
                                                    community
                                                    experiences the same
                                                    pains, see the same
                                                    opportunities, or
                                                    has other
                                                    suggestions for
                                                    improvement.</p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px"> </p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px">The

                                                    issues that can
                                                    arise from our
                                                    current method of
                                                    developing our
                                                    various docs
                                                    include:</p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <ol
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px">
                                                    <li
                                                      style="margin-left:15px">Draft

                                                      content that
                                                      exists in the
                                                      wiki.  This may be
                                                      in varying states
                                                      (correct,
                                                      incorrect, lousy,
                                                      confused, etc.)
                                                      and is visible to
                                                      the internet and
                                                      typically not
                                                      clearly labelled
                                                      as draft.  Google
                                                      ‘owasp purple
                                                      monkey dishwasher’
                                                      for an example of
                                                      a draft wiki page
                                                      visible to the
                                                      internet.  This
                                                      content also needs
                                                      to get cleaned up
                                                      after a project
                                                      release.</li>
                                                    <li
                                                      style="margin-left:15px">Substandard


                                                      descriptions/content
                                                      can get into our
                                                      docs.  Getting
                                                      people to review
                                                      every
                                                      line/example/diagram/appendix
                                                      is difficult with
                                                      a volunteer
                                                      organization (as
                                                      other threads have
                                                      discussed)</li>
                                                    <li
                                                      style="margin-left:15px">Duplications


                                                      happen, as 10
                                                      different projects
                                                      create/copy/paste
                                                      their definitions
                                                      of topics such as
                                                      XSS, SQLi, CSRF,
                                                      etc.  This wastes
                                                      effort in an
                                                      organization
                                                      already
                                                      constrained of
                                                      active volunteers.</li>
                                                    <li
                                                      style="margin-left:15px">Content

                                                      gets out-of-date. 
                                                      The work to create
                                                      a new version of a
                                                      doc project takes
                                                      years.</li>
                                                  </ol>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px">I’m
                                                    sure some readers
                                                    will be mentally
                                                    adding their own
                                                    issues to this list.</p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px"> </p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px">Proposal:</p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px">Bringing

                                                    together discussions
                                                    with a few people
                                                    over the last few
                                                    years (you know who
                                                    you are), I’m
                                                    proposing the
                                                    following: we write
                                                    our docs with
                                                    reusable resources. 
                                                    What would this
                                                    mean?  Something
                                                    similar to the
                                                    following:</p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px"><span
style="font-family:Symbol"><span><br>
                                                      </span></span></p>
                                                  <ol
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px">
                                                    <li
                                                      style="margin-left:15px">We

                                                      dump all of the
                                                      content from our
                                                      wiki, current
                                                      docs, descriptions
                                                      in code tools,
                                                      etc.  We put it
                                                      into markup (as
                                                      some projects are
                                                      already doing) and
                                                      add it to source
                                                      code repositories.</li>
                                                    <li
                                                      style="margin-left:15px">We

                                                      share doc markup
                                                      files <u>across
                                                        ALL docs and
                                                        code projects</u>. 


                                                      For example,
                                                      imagine we have a
                                                      folder for SQLi. 
                                                      This directory
                                                      contains the OWASP
                                                      ‘golden source’
                                                      for SQLi
                                                      definition,
                                                      examples, code,
                                                      tests, etc. 
                                                      Repeat for all
                                                      other AppSec
                                                      issues (CSRF, cert
                                                      pinning, etc.). 
                                                      We use a mechanism
                                                      to ‘compile’ these
                                                      markdown files
                                                      into PDFs and
                                                      integrate into
                                                      code project HTML
                                                      pages.</li>
                                                    <li
                                                      style="margin-left:15px">Similar

                                                      to good coding
                                                      projects, we
                                                      control who can
                                                      edit the files
                                                      under certain
                                                      directories –
                                                      people we know
                                                      have expertise in
                                                      an area.  Edits
                                                      get peer reviewed
                                                      before
                                                      submission.  Other
                                                      people can suggest
                                                      edits and prove
                                                      their experience
                                                      to the existing
                                                      team to join it.</li>
                                                    <li
                                                      style="margin-left:15px">We

                                                      allow anyone to
                                                      ‘include’ this
                                                      markup file into
                                                      their project.  So
                                                      if the Code Review
                                                      Guide wants to add
                                                      a section on SQLi,
                                                      and needs a
                                                      definition, I
                                                      don’t write it (or
                                                      copy from wiki), I
                                                      simply include the
                                                      relevant markup
                                                      file.  Same for
                                                      testing guide, dev
                                                      guide, ZAP hints
                                                      page, security
                                                      shepherd info
                                                      page, cheetsheet,
                                                      and on and on.</li>
                                                    <li
                                                      style="margin-left:15px">We

                                                      allow all of our
                                                      docs, plus the
                                                      wiki, plus all
                                                      code projects, to
                                                      dynamically use an
                                                      markup file
                                                      update.  We make
                                                      this ‘real time’. 
                                                      This needs an
                                                      example.  Say in
                                                      March a massive
                                                      change occurs in
                                                      the world of
                                                      SQLi.  Right now
                                                      any project that
                                                      talks about SQLi
                                                      would need to
                                                      manually go in and
                                                      update, and those
                                                      updates will be of
                                                      varying quality
                                                      and content.  If,
                                                      instead, one
                                                      (true) source file
                                                      was update, all
                                                      those other
                                                      projects could
                                                      spot the change
                                                      and automatically
                                                      rebuild
                                                      themselves,
                                                      meaning the next
                                                      person to download
                                                      a development
                                                      guide PDF, or view
                                                      the wiki, would
                                                      get the updated
                                                      SQLi information.</li>
                                                    <ol>
                                                      <li
                                                        style="margin-left:15px">This

                                                        is a big
                                                        change.  This
                                                        may be a
                                                        controversial
                                                        change.  <u>However

                                                          it would
                                                          greatly reduce
                                                          our workload</u> (only
                                                        one markup
                                                        document needs
                                                        to get
                                                        updated).  It
                                                        will also <u>greatly


                                                          reduce review
                                                          tasks</u>, as
                                                        everyone is
                                                        sharing core
                                                        content which is
                                                        reviewed once. 
                                                        It also improves
                                                        our image to the
                                                        world, as all
                                                        projects have
                                                        the same great
                                                        descriptions and
                                                        content.</li>
                                                      <li
                                                        style="margin-left:15px"><span><span>  </span></span>This


                                                        change also
                                                        improves our
                                                        responsiveness. 
                                                        Imagine a
                                                        heartbleed type
                                                        issue being
                                                        reflected in all
                                                        OWASP code and
                                                        documentation
                                                        projects, as
                                                        well as the
                                                        wiki/cheetsheets,
                                                        within a few
                                                        days?  (simply
                                                        the time for the
                                                        team to agree
                                                        updates to the
                                                        text/examples/descriptions,
                                                        review, and
                                                        submit)</li>
                                                    </ol>
                                                    <li
                                                      style="margin-left:15px"><span
style="font-family:Symbol"><span> </span></span>We should also make
                                                      these markup files
                                                      available to
                                                      anyone on the
                                                      internet (read
                                                      only).  This way
                                                      the source
                                                      descriptions
                                                      become an OWASP
                                                      resource it
                                                      itself, and anyone
                                                      out there needing
                                                      to spread the word
                                                      on AppSec has easy
                                                      access to rock
                                                      solid, up-to-date
                                                      definitions.<br>
                                                    </li>
                                                  </ol>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px">This

                                                    changes the model,
                                                    from people like
                                                    myself who run
                                                    ‘projects’, to
                                                    smaller expert teams
                                                    who know
                                                    ‘technologies’ (such
                                                    as SQLi or IIS
                                                    secure
                                                    configuration).  It
                                                    focuses people where
                                                    they want to be on
                                                    docs projects, but
                                                    easily shares that
                                                    knowledge across all
                                                    OWASP (and more)
                                                    projects.  It also
                                                    means there’d never
                                                    be another need to
                                                    clean-up the wiki –
                                                    it would always be
                                                    based off the markup
                                                    content.</p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px"><b>Big

                                                      downside</b>:
                                                    there’s a large
                                                    piece of work to
                                                    start it off.  All
                                                    content would need
                                                    to get organized,
                                                    put into sensible
                                                    structure, converted
                                                    to markdown, argued
                                                    over, ‘experts’
                                                    defined and
                                                    assigned, etc.  I
                                                    doubt this would be
                                                    a volunteer effort,
                                                    and may need
                                                    contractor
                                                    involvement.  Could
                                                    this be combined
                                                    with the OWASP wiki
                                                    redesign?</p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px">So…
                                                    the ask from the
                                                    community, what are
                                                    your thoughts? Could
                                                    this be a viable
                                                    option to save us
                                                    time on
                                                    docs/descriptions
                                                    and increase
                                                    quality?  Would
                                                    there be funds to
                                                    perform the initial
                                                    conversion of
                                                    everything into
                                                    markup pages?  Would
                                                    there be resistance
                                                    to working in this
                                                    new model?</p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
                                                  </p>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="font-size:12.8px">Gary</p>
                                                </div>
                                                <br>
                                                <fieldset></fieldset>
                                                <br>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <span>
                                              <pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
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                                          rel="noreferrer"
                                          target="_blank">https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders</a><br>
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