<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>FYI there is some detail recorded in a few places for clarity.</div><div><br></div><div>Archive 2013 60/40 split</div><div><a href="https://lists.owasp.org/pipermail/owasp-board/2013-February/011674.html">https://lists.owasp.org/pipermail/owasp-board/2013-February/011674.html</a></div><div><br></div><div>And here</div><div><br></div><div>90/10 Split 2014</div><div><a href="https://www.owasp.org/index.php/OWASP_Board_Votes">https://www.owasp.org/index.php/OWASP_Board_Votes</a></div><div><br></div><div>The first effort was a (1) year experiment to provide a split to chapters to get them energized.  It was voted on year two and passed as well. (2009 time frame) might've in Kate's notes or wiki mins she was the scribe and took them back in those days they do exist.</div><div><br></div><div>Moving to a global model and empowering a local model will solve this rich/poor chapters debate.  Investment in projects will also solve the current issue. For every $1.00 the foundation brings in $.50 should support projects, .25 outreach marketing and .25 administrative staff. Will discuss my thoughts on it during my upcoming board interview in more detail. Take a look at the annual report this will help put things in context.</div><div><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Aug 17, 2015, at 6:12 PM, Jim Manico <<a href="mailto:jim.manico@owasp.org">jim.manico@owasp.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
  
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    The OWASP foundation made a promise to chapters - years ago - that
    we would isolate earned funds from each chapter for that chapter
    only. We then set up a regional conference profit sharing program
    for chapters and gave chapters a percentage of membership funds for
    members that flagged their chapter. This was all set up years ago
    before the election of any current board member.<br>
    <br>
    I do not think the foundation should break that promise (if not
    verbal contract) to chapters around the world and reverse current
    chapter ringfencing.<br>
    <br>
    But we can certainly change that policy moving forward if needed,
    which is actively being discussed by the board, staff and others.<br>
    <br>
    I look at this as many things in computer science - as a tradeoff,
    not a battle between good and evil. <br>
    <br>
    Again, my hope is that we work together as adults to collaborate on
    a better policy if one is needed. <b>There is no way we are going
      to make everyone happy</b>. If you mess with chapter ringfencing,
    you are going to upset a lot of very hard working and active
    chapters. If we leave the ringfencing, it's going to limit major
    investment capability of the foundation. <br>
    <br>
    This is not a cut and dry issue in my opinion. I can see the
    benefits either way. I am most concerned about what the community
    thinks is best and what is best for the foundation and serving our
    mission. <br>
    <br>
    Also, the whole board voting process slows things down. That
    "slowing" factor, like adaptive key generation algorithms, is by
    design. It takes a voting quorum of board members to significantly
    change policy or embark on major investments. So for those of you
    who are frustrated by what you perceive as "bureaucracy" then when
    what is the alternative? Do you want one "king" to just make all
    decisions? Do you want any member to just dictate new policy? I
    think for sure governance can be very inefficient - but no
    governance is even more inefficient. <br>
    <br>
    So please, if you want to see something changed - there are positive
    avenues to do so. <b>Propose an bylaw change to the board or just
      ask questions on the board list,</b> <b>talk with members of
      staff,</b> <b>participate on the governance email list and
      trigger good debate</b> - while emailing the leaders list is a
    good way to get community involvement in your cause - please
    consider following  through with action that works with the
    foundation to actually make change beyond leaders list email.<br>
    <br>
    <b>Communication Resources:</b><br>
    <ol>
      <li>Contact the Staff w/ Tracking: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.tfaforms.com/308703">https://www.tfaforms.com/308703</a></li>
      <li>OWASP Board List: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.owasp.org/listinfo/owasp-board">https://lists.owasp.org/listinfo/owasp-board</a></li>
      <li>OWASP Governance List:
        <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/governance">https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/governance</a></li>
    </ol>
    <br>
    Aloha,<br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Jim Manico
Global Board Member
OWASP Foundation
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.owasp.org">https://www.owasp.org</a>
Join me at AppSecUSA 2015!</pre>
    <br>
    PS: When the OWASP foundation did not use tracking forms, we
    received a large number of complains that support issues fell
    through the cracks. Now that we have a contact form with a tracking
    ID, we get complaints of bureaucracy. I think it's more important to
    NOT let issues fall through the cracks...<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/17/15 11:31 AM, Eoin Keary wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:9E03385F-18C6-4C6E-A8D6-F0B2D08100E7@owasp.org" type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <div>Johanna,</div>
      <div>The funds distribution in OWASP is broken. Has been broken
        for years. Some funds are legally allocated to chapters and
        projects and can not be moved. Other funds can be moved but the
        mix is unclear.</div>
      <div>The Owasp foundation should have reserved the right to
        allocate funds where required. I believe this has been done but
        unsure.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I believe some of the funds in OWASP would be best used as
        banking test data as it will persist in banking systems forever
        :)</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>This is my humble understanding of the issue.</div>
      <div><br>
        Eoin Keary
        <div>OWASP Volunteer</div>
        <div>@eoinkeary</div>
        <div><span style="font-size: 13pt;"><br>
          </span></div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div><br>
        On 17 Aug 2015, at 18:04, johanna curiel curiel <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:johanna.curiel@owasp.org"></a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:johanna.curiel@owasp.org">johanna.curiel@owasp.org</a>>
        wrote:<br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <div>
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div> >I don't think there is anything preventing a
              project from doing the same, but I haven't seen it done at
              this point.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>I think we need to create Project Summits in the form
              of events with the whole purpose to gather funds for
              projects .Open samm has done this and I think we can try
              that. Fo that we need the support of the staff Business
              liaison, Event manager, just as they put their work and
              efforts in Events and appsecs. Here cut share between
              OWASp staff time and projects can also be done.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div> >OWASP has a project funding bucket.</div>
            <div>Look, Denver chapter has around 50K in their bucket.
              The richest Project is ZAP with 10k... but thats is the
              exception. Even worse when you look at chapters outside US
              or EU, mine has only USD40 dollars. Most projects have
              Zero Dollars.</div>
            <div>And the limits right now are a support but do not help
              to get important things moving like OWASP Academy portal,
              Leaders like Azzedine assist and show case his chapter or
              project or other more complex initiatives. Or major
              improvements or promotions to their projects. <br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>  >Remember that the Board is just a handful of
              leaders who were elected to set the compass.</div>
            <div>  Yes but how do they know where to go, that's why the
              survey. The survey is the compass. And the leaders are
              elected to listed to the community.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>And About committees...</div>
            <div>The only existing active committee right now is the
              Project Review (which I still call myself a taskforce). I
              haven't see much initiatives or participation from other
              committees. So the committee concept in theory seemed like
              a great idea but in practice is not working because in my
              eyes, creating a committee is creating a mini board inside
              OWASP. We do not want to create oligarchies in the end.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>  I thik we should cut off that comitee idea and be
              more practical. More like this</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>  Example:</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>
              <ul>
                <li>John Lita wants to create an academy portal but
                  developing it costs money and resources that
                  volunteers alone cannot be easy pull off(owaspa
                  project was the same and died, just like many
                  educational initiatives)<br>
                </li>
                <li>John must create a proposal with defined goals and
                  how to reach them. He joins other volunteers in this
                  effort. No need to be a commitee.<br>
                </li>
                <li> John & Claudia create a survey and seek support
                  of the community<br>
                </li>
                <li>  If the idea has major feedback and volunteers,
                  then John has the support from the staff to execute
                  including looking for sponsors using crowdsource
                  funding portals<br>
                </li>
                <li>Staff monitors development and results of the
                  actions taken<br>
                </li>
                <li>Staff reports results to the community back</li>
              </ul>
            </div>
            <div>This is in my eyes how I have been working in the end,
              because , as volunteers, available time mostly depends on
              one or 2 passionate individuals like John-Lita, which are
              more dedicated and the rest follows...<br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Now if we want to change things, don't tell me to set a
              committee, because Josh , this has not work so far. </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div> Allow me  and let the staff know that they should
              support me and any other volunteers seeking for
              implementing their ideas ;-). </div>
            <div>Lets cut the red tape with committees and let people
              know that if they want to do something,</div>
            <div>
              <ul>
                <li>Contact the staff. <br>
                </li>
                <li>Set a survey and gather support<br>
                </li>
                <li>Need more money? Set a crowd funding project @ <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.kickstarter.com"></a><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.kickstarter.com">https://www.kickstarter.com</a>
                  under OWASP</li>
                <li>Volunteers implement idea or project with the
                  support of owasp staff and other volunteers</li>
              </ul>
              <div>How do we get this idea to action? </div>
              <div>Shall we create a survey? </div>
              <div>Do you need to discuss this on a board meeting?</div>
            </div>
            <div>How do I get empowered and let the staff know that as a
              volunteer I have your support for this?(if I do? </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>You see...how dependable I'm from the board to be able
              to execute?</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Off course I can always do this on my own but them I
              better do it without OWASP...</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Regards</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Johanna</div>
          </div>
          <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
            <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 10:55 AM,
              Josh Sokol <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:josh.sokol@owasp.org" target="_blank">josh.sokol@owasp.org</a>></span>
              wrote:<br>
              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>Johanna,<br>
                                    <br>
                                  </div>
                                  Thank you for putting your thoughts
                                  out there for everyone.  Silence is
                                  not good for anyone and OWASP will be
                                  far more successful if we know what
                                  our leaders are struggling with and
                                  make a conscious effort to improve
                                  it.  I think that many of your points
                                  are very valid and strongly support
                                  the idea of polls to gauge community
                                  support for actions being taken.  I
                                  also support the idea that the Board
                                  should be making as few of these
                                  decisions as possible and putting the
                                  power back in the hands of the
                                  community with support from the
                                  staff.  The Board should be the
                                  "compass" making sure that we are
                                  moving in the right direction with the
                                  community and staff being the ones
                                  actually pushing us forward.  That's
                                  not to say that members of the Board
                                  won't have their own projects or
                                  initiatives, but they do so as part of
                                  the community, not because of their
                                  roles on the Board.  The Committees
                                  2.0 framework was a first step in
                                  driving this level of empowerment back
                                  to the community while maintaining
                                  accountability and providing
                                  appropriately scoped actions.  My
                                  impression was that the Projects
                                  Committee was rolling forward quite
                                  well under this guidance, but it
                                  sounds like maybe I was wrong.  Are
                                  there specific actions that you have
                                  tried to take on the committee that
                                  got blocked by the Board or hung up in
                                  "red tape"?  Are there needs for
                                  funding that haven't been met?<br>
                                  <br>
                                </div>
                                Regarding the project vs chapter funding
                                schemas, I'm not sure that there is a
                                good answer.  Projects are typically
                                made up of a pocket of individuals. 
                                Typically one leader with sometimes one
                                or two others assisting.  Chapters are
                                typically anywhere from 20 people to
                                hundreds.  We provide members with the
                                ability to allocate their funds to
                                either, but most associate themselves
                                with a chapter rather than a project
                                because that's where they participate. 
                                We also have chapters putting on
                                conferences with the goal of raising
                                funds.  I don't think there is anything
                                preventing a project from doing the
                                same, but I haven't seen it done at this
                                point.  Those are the two main ways that
                                I see chapters raising money.  Yes,
                                there is certainly a difference in
                                schemas and projects will have a more
                                difficult time, but that's also why
                                OWASP has a project funding bucket. 
                                Money from these local events as well as
                                funds raised by our AppSec conferences
                                gets budgeted specifically for this
                                purpose.  To my knowledge, no reasonable
                                request for funds by projects has been
                                denied.  Just because there isn't money
                                sitting "ring fenced" in an account for
                                the projects, doesn't mean that there
                                isn't money that can be spent.  It just
                                means that it needs to be requested from
                                the pool.  Yes, it's a different model
                                of funding, but the end result is the
                                same.  There are funds available at
                                OWASP for everyone who needs them.<br>
                                <br>
                              </div>
                              There are obviously many things that need
                              to be improved at OWASP and,
                              unfortunately, the Board has been tied up
                              in rules, events, bylaws, etc for a while
                              now.  It's definitely not the "fun" part
                              of the job and it is very time consuming. 
                              That said, I would argue that these are
                              the things that need to be changed in
                              order for everyone else (staff, community,
                              etc) to be able to be better served. 
                              We've made several changes to the Bylaws
                              and are working on more.  We've hired an
                              Executive Director (Paul), an Event
                              Manager (Laura), a Community Manager
                              (Noreen), and a Project Coordinator
                              (Claudia) just in the almost two years
                              that I've been on the Board.  The needle
                              on the compass is set and, while it takes
                              some time to right the ship, we are
                              getting there by giving our community the
                              support it requires to be successful.  So,
                              here's my general thought:<br>
                              <br>
                            </div>
                            1) If it's within the scope of a defined
                            Committee, JUST DO IT!<br>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                          2) If there's no Committee defined for it,
                          CREATE ONE, then JUST DO IT!<br>
                          <br>
                        </div>
                        3) If a Committee doesn't make sense, ASK THE
                        STAFF FOR IT!<br>
                        <br>
                      </div>
                      4) If asking the staff isn't working or we need to
                      change a policy to make it happen, LET THE BOARD
                      KNOW!<br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                    The Board should be the last resort, in my opinion,
                    not the first.  We should be the enabler, not the
                    bottleneck.  I think that our leaders make too many
                    assumptions (probably based on past Board actions)
                    about what needs to go to the Board and we need to
                    get away from that.  Remember that the Board is just
                    a handful of leaders who were elected to set the
                    compass.  We have a finite number of things that we
                    can handle and our Board meetings are typically
                    overflowing with topics.  So, if something is
                    bothering you, I would encourage you to change it. 
                    That's why, with the David Rook situation, I
                    encouraged creation of a new Committee to determine
                    a reasonable solution.  If it requires a policy
                    change by the Board, then we can vote on that, but
                    asking the Board to take action just perpetuates the
                    oligarchy that you mention in your e-mail.  Instead
                    of pushing these issues up to the Board for action,
                    let's have the community DECIDE what they want and
                    have the Board change the compass needle via bylaws,
                    policies, and staff discussions, accordingly.  At
                    least, that's my vision for OWASP.  Is that
                    something that you can get on board with?<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
                        <br>
                      </font></span></div>
                  <span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">~josh<br>
                    </font></span></div>
                <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">
                    <div>
                      <div class="h5">On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 8:11 AM,
                        johanna curiel curiel <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:johanna.curiel@owasp.org" target="_blank"></a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:johanna.curiel@owasp.org">johanna.curiel@owasp.org</a>></span>
                        wrote:<br>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                      <div>
                        <div class="h5">
                          <div dir="ltr">Members of the board,
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>With the recent issue regarding David
                              Rook, and my latest experience with
                              red-tape, I'm proposing the following.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>My goals is to call your attention to
                              these issues which I have been observing
                              for a years and not as a critique to your
                              work, but I think if you do not pay
                              attention to these issues and DO something
                              about them, OWASP will loose valuable
                              community participation.</div>
                            <div>
                              <ul>
                                <li>When an initiative is proposed or
                                  launched by a member of the board,
                                  this should be followed up by a survey
                                  where the community can vote.Wether is
                                  a rule or money, these decisions
                                  should be taken based on collected
                                  data and proper substantiation to
                                  avoid oligarchy </li>
                                <li>When an initiative is launched by a
                                  member of the community, especially
                                  when this initiative cost more than
                                  10k, it should be substantiated with
                                  data how this initiative will benefit
                                  the community. Also should be followed
                                  by a survey</li>
                                <li>Staff should help creating the
                                  survey and analyse the votes</li>
                                <li><b>In other words: do more survey to
                                    find out what the community needs
                                    and wants.</b></li>
                              </ul>
                              <div>My observations and where I think you
                                need to give more attention:</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <ul>
                                  <li>Board/Executive director should
                                    work closer with the staff for
                                    guidance and empowering their role.
                                    I have the feeling that the staff is
                                    paralysed waiting for instructions
                                    or following strict rules. The staff
                                    should be motivated to take
                                    initiative and implement projects on
                                    their own that can help the
                                    community. They should not be too
                                    dependent on an Executive director
                                    or member of the board for this part</li>
                                </ul>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>As I see it ,OWASP is known for his
                              Projects & Chapter leaders which as
                              volunteers have contributed the most to
                              set OWASP on the spotlight. Therefore:</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <ul>
                                <li>You should determine and implement
                                  better ways  to provide better funding
                                  schemas for projects . This is
                                  something a volunteer cannot do. And <i>nothing</i>
                                  has been done to help  solve this
                                  issue</li>
                                <li>There is an unfair inequality in the
                                  way chapters can generate funds vs
                                  Projects.</li>
                                <li>Money is locked down in the chapters
                                  budget</li>
                                <li>Chapters outside US & EU have
                                  more struggles to find support. You
                                  should consider a way to support
                                  better these ones since their
                                  countries are not developed in the
                                  area of security as countries in EU
                                  and US.<br>
                                </li>
                                <li>Follow up: when issues like David
                                  Rook or a volunteer rants(like me or
                                  others ) out of frustation, take
                                  action. Put it in the agenda and try
                                  to solve and discuss the issues to
                                  improve the actual problems. So far I
                                  have seen very little follow up on
                                  major issues and discussions raised in
                                  the mailing lists</li>
                                <li>Way to much attention to rules, <i>events</i>
                                  and bylaws etc. Time to take action
                                  and take decisions and propose plans
                                  for improvements of the actual
                                  situation above mentioned</li>
                              </ul>
                              <div>Being that said, and with all due
                                respect to you, I hope that you can take
                                actions and <i>execute</i> improvements
                                that have been an issue since I joined
                                OWASP 3 years ago.</div>
                            </div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Regards</div>
                            <span><font color="#888888">
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>Johanna</div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </font></span></div>
                          <br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <span class="">_______________________________________________<br>
                        Governance mailing list<br>
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Governance@lists.owasp.org" target="_blank">Governance@lists.owasp.org</a><br>
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/governance" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/governance</a><br>
                        <br>
                      </span></blockquote>
                  </div>
                  <br>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <br>
          </div>
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        </div>
      </blockquote>
      -- <br>
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72"></pre>
  

</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Owasp-board mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Owasp-board@lists.owasp.org">Owasp-board@lists.owasp.org</a></span><br><span><a href="https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-board">https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-board</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>
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