[Owasp-leaders] don't allow explicit discrimination 🙏🏿 (women only)

Bjoern Kimminich bjoern.kimminich at owasp.org
Fri Mar 15 07:39:19 UTC 2019


Just for inspiration here are two very successful educational programs from Germany to encourage more girls to go into tech, IT or nat. science:

* https://www.girls-day.de/Daten-Fakten/Das-ist-der-Girls-Day/Ein-Zukunftstag-fuer-Maedchen/english
* https://www.mintpink.de (no EN version available)

If those would be "non-discriminatingly" open for boys as well, the same would happen like Prashant described and it's back to square zero.

Back to the conference trainings: The only thing I could understand frustration about is the fact that the "women only"-training is the only free training (sincere kudos to Vandana and WIA for that!), but I guess that all other trainers are allowed to host their trainings for free as well, no? Then the costs would be down to room and catering at the venue, lowering the financial entrance barrier thus allowing a more diverse mix of participants again.

So, with a sprinkle of sarcasm all the offered trainings are discriminating some groups either by gender or financial situation. But that makes it fair again, as everyone can feel equally discriminated. Or nobody does, which might be the preferable choice?

Cheers,
Björn 

Am 15. März 2019 07:12:46 MEZ schrieb "Martín Villalba" <martin.villalba at owasp.org>:
>Being a supporter of minority groups, I sometimes struggle myself to
>draw
>the line between supporting minority groups vs. not discriminating
>majority
>groups.  I think this one may be one of those cases for you Timur.  It
>should be clear to all of us that the intent of this women-only
>training is
>not discrimination of other genders, but only supporting and
>encouraging
>women in AppSec by giving them a space where they can feel more
>comfortable
>than they usually do in a male-dominated environment (same idea
>Prashant
>mentioned).
>
>A while ago Vandana sent an email explaining this very clearly but
>unfortunately I couldn't find it just now.  She could share her
>thoughts
>again in this thread, if she feels like doing so (maybe just a copy
>paste
>from that older email).
>
>Perhaps this women-only training would warrant a very brief explanation
>(somewhere in the conference page) as of why OWASP makes the choice to
>have
>a women-only event.  This could even bring awareness to more people and
>hopefully help build towards gender equality.
>
>Cheers,
>Martín.
>
>
>On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 10:58 PM Prashant Kv <kvprashant at owasp.org>
>wrote:
>
>> Let’s not politicize everything.
>>
>>  Feedback I have received from many girls is, InfoSec trainings tend
>to be
>> male dominated and they feel unwelcomed to ask basic questions. They
>feel
>> They are often rediculed for asking basic questions. The motive of
>women
>> only training is not to exclude men but to give a closer and more
>emphatic
>> learning environment for women. We did similar trainings in India and
>> ladies have found it extremely useful. Ladies could get their doubts
>> clarified without been afraid of rediculed or labeled.
>>
>> Regards
>> Prashant
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, March 14, 2019, Timur 'x' Khrotko [owasp]
><timur at owasp.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Board, dear Josh,
>>>
>>> please modify the conditions of the Burp/ZAP training announced at
>Appsec
>>> Global in Tel Aviv. The "women only" condition is gender
>discriminatory,
>>> that is just plainly discriminatory and as such contradicts the
>faith and
>>> probably the policies of OWASP. Also it contradicted the training
>review
>>> policy which promised to make choices solely on professional
>grounds.
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I understand the idea behind it and I support the WIA initiative but
>>> there must be common sense limits. You shouldn't encourage black
>only
>>> tailor shops in your holy fight with racially discriminatory tailor
>shops.
>>>
>>> There're options to keep the idea, maybe make the training free for
>WIA
>>> members -- that would be against my taste still but maybe something
>>> tolerable. Or let WIA invent a clever and tasteful solution for the
>>> conditions of a free training to engage female devs in secdev.
>>>
>>> As far as I know this isn't an issue with the Tel Aviv organisers as
>this
>>> training was nested from above. And also this women only thing
>already
>>> happened at one of the previous conferences, in the US probably.
>>>
>>> Consider that when one inserts trainings for political reasons then
>>> similar trainings which could compete on professional grounds get
>>> automatically excluded. So by promoting causes which are not exactly
>the
>>> core causes OWASP exists for one harms the professional
>impartiality/etc.
>>>
>>> Satirical sidenote: I'm not afraid of being tagged as trumpist since
>I'm
>>> already a Russian troll 😀 And during the Samantha-gate I already
>accepted
>>> highbrow American comments that we don't know modern social/moral
>norms at
>>> this side of the world.
>>>
>>> Or would it be a good move next time to announce a 'Muslims only',
>'Jews
>>> only', 'childfree only' or a 'gay only' training next time? (I
>subscribe to
>>> support all these causes and peoples sometimes discriminated -- even
>in my
>>> OWASP hat but not in a discriminatory way.)
>>>
>>> Your thoughts?
>>>
>>> Current reference: https://telaviv.appsecglobal.org/registration/
>>>
>>> Timur
>>>
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>> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
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>>
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