[Owasp-leaders] [Owasp-board] rough consensus & running code

Tiffany Long tiffany.long at owasp.org
Thu May 4 19:24:09 UTC 2017

Dear Bev,

 I said all specific comments were included.  All comments are still in the
revision history of the docs. Until the docs were put on the wiki after
being available for several months every change was visible as they were
written in suggestion mode.   If I recall, I think one but maybe more, of
your comments was specific and included.  As Liam said earlier we could
only fix specific flaws with specific answers.

As to whether or not the entire community was aware of the review;
invitations to comment were in the connector multiple times, on the blog
multiple times, in twitter multiple times, on FB, and I think also sent to
the Leader's List.

Staff understands the constraints and is working diligently towards
streamlined and inclusive systems to support the community in a sustainable
way.  Efforts like SSO (Single Sign On) and the new AMS (Association
Management System) are the foundation of how we are moving forward.  All of
this is documented in the Operations Reports and elsewhere.  Once these are
in place we will also be creating a more user friendly volunteer system to
allow our Project and Chapter Leaders more granular insight and control.

If you would share the funding request numbers with me, I would be glad to
look into your requests and make sure they are addressed with all due
haste.  As it is I show that you have only one funding request that is
listed as "Pending Submitter Response" and none for the Brooklyn chapter.

Tiffany Long
Community Manager

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 7:58 PM, Bev Corwin <bev.corwin at owasp.org> wrote:

> PS: You said that the draft was open for comments and *all* comments were
> incorporated. I know that this is a false statement because I submitted
> comments and they were not incorporated, in fact, they were completely
> ignored. Where are these comments documented? I do not think that the
> entire community was aware of this opportunity to comment. If they were, I
> think that you would have heard more comments like mine, that we need to
> develop an integrated local to global workflow for projects and chapter
> memberships, sponsors, events and co-marketing arrangements, since it is
> too much for staff to do on their own. Also, this document claims funding
> options, and our chapter submitted a number of funding requests that were
> also ignored. This bottlenecking is holding local chapters back, waiting on
> staff, who often times do not come through for them, ignore them, and place
> unrealistic responsibilities on them. This needs to change.
> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 2:14 PM, Bev Corwin <bev.corwin at owasp.org> wrote:
>> My biggest complaint is the fact that it was not put up for vote by the
>> community before being adopted. Also, that I was not able to comment on the
>> draft that you shared. In addition, I object to the way that local chapters
>> are being limited in creating their own co-marketing agreements, their own
>> sponsor relationships and their own events. Finally, I am very disappointed
>> in the staff's non responsiveness to chapter leaders and project leaders in
>> general. I am also very disappointed in "bottlenecking" or creating
>> unnecessary, burdensome costly, wasteful bureaucracy when it is not needed,
>> or welcome. It is one thing to try to organize things, it is another to
>> make it harder for chapter leaders and project leaders. The staff should be
>> looking for ways to streamline processes, supporting chapter leaders and
>> project leaders - not limiting them. It comes across as top down
>> bottlenecking, and does not reflect OWASP basic values and principles. The
>> chapter leader handbook should be simple, flexible, adaptable, responsive
>> and supporting of chapter leaders and project leaders. Not the reverse.
>> This document gave me a headache when I read it - it is an unnecessary
>> burden.
>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Ade Yoseman Putra <ade.putra at owasp.org>
>> wrote:
>>>    - Grants
>>>    - Each year you can ask the foundation
>>>    <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.tfaforms.com/308703%26amp;sa%3DD%26amp;ust%3D1493918989088000%26amp;usg%3DAFQjCNFruJuI2txNUsvjhNDgkHUWlp9oFQ&sa=D&ust=1493918989131000&usg=AFQjCNFeaztTFdW3HWKYh-xk6pTecIv5CQ> for
>>>    up to $500 (usd) up to 4 times per year
>>>    -
>>> Its mean owasp chapter leader must find sponsor to get extra fund for
>>> organize meeting!  $500 usd for 1 meeting is not enough.. although just
>>> pay venue, food, or just looking for volunteer for speaker to keep their
>>> budget not over budget.
>>> Should the chapter handbook give tips how to find sponsorships for new
>>> chapter or  foundation can refer their sponsor to their chapters. Sometimes
>>> new leader still confused how to find sponsor because its not easy.
>>> The best idea is owasp foundation fully support to chapters like as
>>> mozilla. Or maybe in the future
>>> Owasp should have owasp travel management to manage leaders who want
>>> travel as speaker to any owasp conferences. 😀 to use their fund with no
>>> reimbursement .  Buy the flight ticket use their chapters fund✈
>>> Or fondation can refer volunteer like speakers to help any chapters help
>>> organize their local meeting. If not remote speaker can to be.
>>> By the way in asia pasific we planning  organize owasp appsec global in
>>> bangkok thailand 2018 with consensus
>>> Just #owasp-apac . Owasp.slack.com.
>>> Because in asia we dont have appsec this year... hope laura read this
>>> hope .
>>> With consensus we can fully support & help each other and will commit.
>>> The details is
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_asgBBrVyPp9_gHj2YGufDfm
>>> JofQSZVVhMAjpYlakf8/edit#
>>> Thanks
>>> Pada tanggal 4 Mei 2017 23.30, "Bev Corwin" <bev.corwin at owasp.org>
>>> menulis:
>>>> This is a call to all Chapter Leaders, Project Leaders and Members to
>>>> attend a GoTomeeting to review the Chapter Leaders Handbook to outline
>>>> flaws, areas of improvement, and provide a "repeal and replace" Chapter
>>>> Leaders Handbook. If you are interested, please complete the following
>>>> Doodle Poll:  https://doodle.com/poll/v8bqag6c2erss6ft .
>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Evin Hernandez <
>>>> evin.hernandez at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>> I agree with Bev here 100% , Things should be done as a community and
>>>>> a committee
>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Bev Corwin <bev.corwin at owasp.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> @Liam - Lets create a committee of members and chapter leaders for
>>>>>> all owasp chapters, and I will give you a long list of the flaws.
>>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Liam Smit <liam.smit at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Bev
>>>>>>> If you think there is a flaw then please point it out and offer a
>>>>>>> fix (improvement) for it. If your suggested improvement is deemed good by
>>>>>>> the OWASP community at large then it stands a chance of replacing the flaw.
>>>>>>> Please repeat this for the "many flaws".
>>>>>>> Many thanks and kind regards,
>>>>>>> Liam
>>>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 5:32 PM, Bev Corwin <bev.corwin at owasp.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sounds like the Chapter Leader Handbook needs to be voted on by
>>>>>>>> members. There are many flaws. Also, staff, chapter leaders and board need
>>>>>>>> some training in user experience, member experience, and grassroots
>>>>>>>> communications outreach. These top down methodologies and processes are
>>>>>>>> contrary to OWASP values and core principles. They are being hijacked by
>>>>>>>> staff to bottleneck and constrain chapter leaders, mostly to protect their
>>>>>>>> jobs. Bottlenecking needs to be prohibited. Big problem at OWASP.
>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Tiffany Long <
>>>>>>>> tiffany.long at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hey Tom and Bev!  It seems you are ahead of the curve.  This
>>>>>>>>> document was set to be released to the community with the Ops Update Blog
>>>>>>>>> post accompanied by the following text:
>>>>>>>>> Chapter Orientation:
>>>>>>>>>> Since September all new chapters were requested to have an
>>>>>>>>>> Orientation meeting via Gotomeeting.  Since then these meetings have been
>>>>>>>>>> refined into a  series of standing one on one appointments for any Chapter
>>>>>>>>>> Leaders starting a new chapter, any new chapter leaders who wish to join,
>>>>>>>>>> and any current leaders who want to take a refresher.
>>>>>>>>>> So far reactions have been good.  Many experienced chapter
>>>>>>>>>> leaders have expressed a wish for this when they got started and follow up
>>>>>>>>>> emails with procedural questions have dropped from an average of 5 per new
>>>>>>>>>> chapter to 10 total in the last 8 months.  We have also seen an uptick in
>>>>>>>>>> new chapters using funds and getting multiple leaders on board.  All of
>>>>>>>>>> these are indicators of early chapter health.  Board members, staff, and
>>>>>>>>>> the community can read the draft outline of the orientation.  The document
>>>>>>>>>> will be made public in the form of the Chapter FAQ in the next few weeks.
>>>>>>>>> It has long been noted that new chapter leaders tick the box that
>>>>>>>>> says that they have read the Chapter Leader Handbook, but often do not
>>>>>>>>> understand what help they can get from the foundation or how funding works.
>>>>>>>>> This document is a draft outline of the most commonly asked questions about
>>>>>>>>> being a chapter leader.
>>>>>>>>> The orientation is divided into three parts, the first addresses
>>>>>>>>> how to build a chapter, how to reach out to audiences and tactics that
>>>>>>>>> other chapters have used to flourish. The second part covers our vendor
>>>>>>>>> neutrality policy and other rules and privileges for chapter leaders.
>>>>>>>>> Finally we discuss funding in-depth.
>>>>>>>>> Some conversations are expected to be had again when chapter
>>>>>>>>> leaders are not overwhelmed with questions. In the outline you will see
>>>>>>>>> these topics marked with statements like "reach out to me." Every point in
>>>>>>>>> this orientation outline is simply a rehash from the Chapter Leader
>>>>>>>>> Handbook.
>>>>>>>>> Tiffany Long
>>>>>>>>> Community Manager
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Bev Corwin <bev.corwin at owasp.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> PS: Re: Document: https://docs.google.
>>>>>>>>>> com/document/d/1uupqip9TiejURbznt_Dk6t1H--8foRJxcVQ2gdmUj-s/
>>>>>>>>>> edit?ts=590a0fcc
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Bev Corwin <bev.corwin at owasp.org
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Note that you cannot "edit" or "comment" on this document. The
>>>>>>>>>>> tone is very *not* right for "consensus". In fact, it is authoritarian in
>>>>>>>>>>> tone and intent. Sounds like OWASP Staff are revolting against
>>>>>>>>>>> local chapters and making the OWASP Global staff the new "kings" of OWASP
>>>>>>>>>>> Chapters. Do you think that this this appropriate?
>>>>>>>>>>> Bev
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Tom Brennan - OWASP <
>>>>>>>>>>> tomb at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> @OWASP we reject kings, presidents and voting. we believe in
>>>>>>>>>>>> rough consensus and running code
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.owasp.org/index.php/About_The_Open_Web_Application_Security_Project#Core_Values>,
>>>>>>>>>>>> your attendance is requested to join the next global board meeting on May
>>>>>>>>>>>> 9th
>>>>>>>>>>>> Details:
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Board
>>>>>>>>>>>> Join us share your ideas, concerns and suggestions in person
>>>>>>>>>>>> or virtually
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Category:OWASP_AppSec_Conference>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On behalf of the 2017 Board of Directors thank you for caring
>>>>>>>>>>>> and sharing.
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.owasp.org/index.php/About_The_Open_Web_Applicati
>>>>>>>>>>>> on_Security_Project#2017_Elected_by_Membership.2C_Global_Boa
>>>>>>>>>>>> rd_Members
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom Brennan
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
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>>>>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>>> --
>>>>> Thank You,
>>>>> Evin Hernandez
>>>>> Owasp NY/NJ VP / Chapter Leader
>>>>> evin.hernandez at owasp.org
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
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