[Owasp-leaders] rough consensus & running code

Bev Corwin bev.corwin at owasp.org
Thu May 4 18:14:36 UTC 2017

My biggest complaint is the fact that it was not put up for vote by the
community before being adopted. Also, that I was not able to comment on the
draft that you shared. In addition, I object to the way that local chapters
are being limited in creating their own co-marketing agreements, their own
sponsor relationships and their own events. Finally, I am very disappointed
in the staff's non responsiveness to chapter leaders and project leaders in
general. I am also very disappointed in "bottlenecking" or creating
unnecessary, burdensome costly, wasteful bureaucracy when it is not needed,
or welcome. It is one thing to try to organize things, it is another to
make it harder for chapter leaders and project leaders. The staff should be
looking for ways to streamline processes, supporting chapter leaders and
project leaders - not limiting them. It comes across as top down
bottlenecking, and does not reflect OWASP basic values and principles. The
chapter leader handbook should be simple, flexible, adaptable, responsive
and supporting of chapter leaders and project leaders. Not the reverse.
This document gave me a headache when I read it - it is an unnecessary

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Ade Yoseman Putra <ade.putra at owasp.org>

>    - Grants
>    - Each year you can ask the foundation
>    <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.tfaforms.com/308703%26amp;sa%3DD%26amp;ust%3D1493918989088000%26amp;usg%3DAFQjCNFruJuI2txNUsvjhNDgkHUWlp9oFQ&sa=D&ust=1493918989131000&usg=AFQjCNFeaztTFdW3HWKYh-xk6pTecIv5CQ> for
>    up to $500 (usd) up to 4 times per year
>    -
> Its mean owasp chapter leader must find sponsor to get extra fund for
> organize meeting!  $500 usd for 1 meeting is not enough.. although just
> pay venue, food, or just looking for volunteer for speaker to keep their
> budget not over budget.
> Should the chapter handbook give tips how to find sponsorships for new
> chapter or  foundation can refer their sponsor to their chapters. Sometimes
> new leader still confused how to find sponsor because its not easy.
> The best idea is owasp foundation fully support to chapters like as
> mozilla. Or maybe in the future
> Owasp should have owasp travel management to manage leaders who want
> travel as speaker to any owasp conferences. 😀 to use their fund with no
> reimbursement .  Buy the flight ticket use their chapters fund✈
> Or fondation can refer volunteer like speakers to help any chapters help
> organize their local meeting. If not remote speaker can to be.
> By the way in asia pasific we planning  organize owasp appsec global in
> bangkok thailand 2018 with consensus
> Just #owasp-apac . Owasp.slack.com.
> Because in asia we dont have appsec this year... hope laura read this hope
> .
> With consensus we can fully support & help each other and will commit.
> The details is
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_asgBBrVyPp9_
> gHj2YGufDfmJofQSZVVhMAjpYlakf8/edit#
> Thanks
> Pada tanggal 4 Mei 2017 23.30, "Bev Corwin" <bev.corwin at owasp.org>
> menulis:
>> This is a call to all Chapter Leaders, Project Leaders and Members to
>> attend a GoTomeeting to review the Chapter Leaders Handbook to outline
>> flaws, areas of improvement, and provide a "repeal and replace" Chapter
>> Leaders Handbook. If you are interested, please complete the following
>> Doodle Poll:  https://doodle.com/poll/v8bqag6c2erss6ft .
>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Evin Hernandez <evin.hernandez at owasp.org
>> > wrote:
>>> I agree with Bev here 100% , Things should be done as a community and a
>>> committee
>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Bev Corwin <bev.corwin at owasp.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>> @Liam - Lets create a committee of members and chapter leaders for all
>>>> owasp chapters, and I will give you a long list of the flaws.
>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Liam Smit <liam.smit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Bev
>>>>> If you think there is a flaw then please point it out and offer a fix
>>>>> (improvement) for it. If your suggested improvement is deemed good by the
>>>>> OWASP community at large then it stands a chance of replacing the flaw.
>>>>> Please repeat this for the "many flaws".
>>>>> Many thanks and kind regards,
>>>>> Liam
>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 5:32 PM, Bev Corwin <bev.corwin at owasp.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Sounds like the Chapter Leader Handbook needs to be voted on by
>>>>>> members. There are many flaws. Also, staff, chapter leaders and board need
>>>>>> some training in user experience, member experience, and grassroots
>>>>>> communications outreach. These top down methodologies and processes are
>>>>>> contrary to OWASP values and core principles. They are being hijacked by
>>>>>> staff to bottleneck and constrain chapter leaders, mostly to protect their
>>>>>> jobs. Bottlenecking needs to be prohibited. Big problem at OWASP.
>>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Tiffany Long <tiffany.long at owasp.org
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>> Hey Tom and Bev!  It seems you are ahead of the curve.  This
>>>>>>> document was set to be released to the community with the Ops Update Blog
>>>>>>> post accompanied by the following text:
>>>>>>> Chapter Orientation:
>>>>>>>> Since September all new chapters were requested to have an
>>>>>>>> Orientation meeting via Gotomeeting.  Since then these meetings have been
>>>>>>>> refined into a  series of standing one on one appointments for any Chapter
>>>>>>>> Leaders starting a new chapter, any new chapter leaders who wish to join,
>>>>>>>> and any current leaders who want to take a refresher.
>>>>>>>> So far reactions have been good.  Many experienced chapter leaders
>>>>>>>> have expressed a wish for this when they got started and follow up emails
>>>>>>>> with procedural questions have dropped from an average of 5 per new chapter
>>>>>>>> to 10 total in the last 8 months.  We have also seen an uptick in new
>>>>>>>> chapters using funds and getting multiple leaders on board.  All of these
>>>>>>>> are indicators of early chapter health.  Board members, staff, and the
>>>>>>>> community can read the draft outline of the orientation.  The document will
>>>>>>>> be made public in the form of the Chapter FAQ in the next few weeks.
>>>>>>> It has long been noted that new chapter leaders tick the box that
>>>>>>> says that they have read the Chapter Leader Handbook, but often do not
>>>>>>> understand what help they can get from the foundation or how funding works.
>>>>>>> This document is a draft outline of the most commonly asked questions about
>>>>>>> being a chapter leader.
>>>>>>> The orientation is divided into three parts, the first addresses how
>>>>>>> to build a chapter, how to reach out to audiences and tactics that other
>>>>>>> chapters have used to flourish. The second part covers our vendor
>>>>>>> neutrality policy and other rules and privileges for chapter leaders.
>>>>>>> Finally we discuss funding in-depth.
>>>>>>> Some conversations are expected to be had again when chapter leaders
>>>>>>> are not overwhelmed with questions. In the outline you will see these
>>>>>>> topics marked with statements like "reach out to me." Every point in this
>>>>>>> orientation outline is simply a rehash from the Chapter Leader Handbook.
>>>>>>> Tiffany Long
>>>>>>> Community Manager
>>>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Bev Corwin <bev.corwin at owasp.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> PS: Re: Document: https://docs.google.
>>>>>>>> com/document/d/1uupqip9TiejURbznt_Dk6t1H--8foRJxcVQ2gdmUj-s/
>>>>>>>> edit?ts=590a0fcc
>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Bev Corwin <bev.corwin at owasp.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Note that you cannot "edit" or "comment" on this document. The
>>>>>>>>> tone is very *not* right for "consensus". In fact, it is authoritarian in
>>>>>>>>> tone and intent. Sounds like OWASP Staff are revolting against
>>>>>>>>> local chapters and making the OWASP Global staff the new "kings" of OWASP
>>>>>>>>> Chapters. Do you think that this this appropriate?
>>>>>>>>> Bev
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Tom Brennan - OWASP <
>>>>>>>>> tomb at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> @OWASP we reject kings, presidents and voting. we believe in
>>>>>>>>>> rough consensus and running code
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.owasp.org/index.php/About_The_Open_Web_Application_Security_Project#Core_Values>,
>>>>>>>>>> your attendance is requested to join the next global board meeting on May
>>>>>>>>>> 9th
>>>>>>>>>> Details:
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Board
>>>>>>>>>> Join us share your ideas, concerns and suggestions in person or
>>>>>>>>>> virtually
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Category:OWASP_AppSec_Conference>
>>>>>>>>>> On behalf of the 2017 Board of Directors thank you for caring and
>>>>>>>>>> sharing.
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.owasp.org/index.php/About_The_Open_Web_Applicati
>>>>>>>>>> on_Security_Project#2017_Elected_by_Membership.2C_Global_Boa
>>>>>>>>>> rd_Members
>>>>>>>>>> Tom Brennan
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
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>>>>>>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> --
>>> Thank You,
>>> Evin Hernandez
>>> Owasp NY/NJ VP / Chapter Leader
>>> evin.hernandez at owasp.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
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