[Owasp-leaders] 2016 Developer Survey Results

Jim Manico jim.manico at owasp.org
Fri Mar 25 20:07:04 UTC 2016


 > Most CISO's today are IT firewall guys.  Less than 13% of Fortune 100 
CISO's[1] have any kind of background in programming\engineering.

Very well said. I think one of the organizational AppSec challenges is 
to *find the right people* to run AppSec. AppSec should be in the hands 
of one of the *software development leaders*.  Most folks consider their 
AppSec team to be a group of security dudes running scans and pentests. 
This is not the complete AppSec picture, at all. Find software 
development leaders, scrum masters, CTO's from the software side of the 
house and lead developers. Those are the folks who need to get AppSec 
religion - and if they do - you are well on your way.

You need budget from the firewall CISO and the buy-in to do the right 
work, but that's about it.

Aloha,
Jim


On 3/25/16 4:49 AM, Milton Smith wrote:
> A few years ago I started a full security track at JavaOne, Oracle's 
> software development conference in San Francisco CA.  In fact, Jim 
> Manico and Michael Coates helped me get this started.  In a very short 
> period of time the security track was the 3rd most popular track.
>
> It's my opinion most development orgs feel appsec is important but 
> appsec is like brushing your teeth.  If you ask someone if they want 
> beautiful teeth everyone would say, "Yes".  When you then tell them 
> they need to brush their teeth twice a day some people won't do it.  
> Some will floss ever other day or once a week. There's a gap in 
> understanding.  Most technical people don't perceive the same risks we 
> do so they don't prioritize appsec like we know they should.  
> Developers are also fighting battles to improve code quality in 
> general.  Many teams I talk with hardly document anything or even 
> perform peer code review.  These are areas that most developers feel 
> should be done better but don't invest the time.  Appsec is getting 
> lost in the code quality shuffle.
>
> It would be beneficial if OWASP (or another organization) provided 
> security education across roles.  Sure, developers at conferences but 
> also role appropriate top down appsec education.  Most CISO's today 
> are IT firewall guys.  Less than 13% of Fortune 100 CISO's[1] have any 
> kind of background in programming\engineering. They think security is 
> found in a 1U box.  We can't expect these CISO to think like we do.  
> We need to be changing the hearts and minds of IT business leaders.  
> OWASP representation at conferences like Gartner's IT Security Summit 
> would be helpful to reach c-level execs.  Also some representation 
> with policy makers would be helpful.  Each leader and policy maker we 
> influence makes it easier for anyone under their purview trying to 
> improve appsec.  Creating a "culture" of security creates an 
> environment friendlier and more receptive when you propose your next 
> appsec project.  OWASP is not going to code it's way out of appsec 
> challenges.
>
> --Milton
>
> [1] 
> https://digitalguardian.com/blog/anatomy-ciso-breakdown-todays-top-security-leaders-infographic
>
> On 23 Mar 2016, at 9:48, Daniel Harvey wrote:
>
>> In this case we may not be able to reach the developers who just 
>> don't want
>> to listen, but we should have a strategy to reach developers before they
>> get to that point.  Such as get more involved in the places where
>> developers learn to develop and ingrain secure programming in the basic
>> tutorials on how to develop.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 11:42 AM, Mark Miller <mark.miller at owasp.org> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> What about those that don't want to listen, could care less to listen
>>>
>>> Then this is not our market. Trying to teach a fish to climb a tree 
>>> just
>>> gets frustrating for both parties.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 11:36 AM, johanna curiel curiel <
>>> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> These were *security people*, at a *security conference*, interested
>>>> in what was going on outside of their main area of expertise.
>>>>
>>>> Exactly, they were ready to listen ;-). They went there because they
>>>> wanted to know more about security.
>>>>
>>>> What about those that don't want to listen, could care less to listen,
>>>> which I think represents the big majority of developers?
>>>>
>>>> If everyone was ready to listen and know about security then the 
>>>> Top 10
>>>> should have changed since the beginning of time...;-P and we were not
>>>> struggling to promote the message
>>>>
>>>> Just that people understand when I trying to communicate here:
>>>>
>>>>    - I support going to Dev conferences but with a clear strategy in
>>>>    mind which leads to:
>>>>       - Who are you sending and can this 'representative' be able to
>>>>       talk the same language as devs, engage them about security or 
>>>> act as an
>>>>       ambassador?
>>>>       - Are travel costs covered fully for those OWASP leaders willing
>>>>       to assist to these dev conferences?
>>>>
>>>> I think the community wants clarity of the purpose of assisting to 
>>>> devs
>>>> conferences and who will be entitled to assist. I think we need to 
>>>> look at
>>>> experts like Bill and send him to Microsoft Conference to mingle 
>>>> there for
>>>> example.
>>>> These people are knowledgeable, understand perfectly the struggles 
>>>> from a
>>>> developer point of view,  that can talk and understand the issues 
>>>> from *a
>>>> developer point of view*.
>>>>
>>>> But if you send a *no developer* to preach security, or someone 
>>>> that has
>>>> never programmed in that language or platform,  I think this is a very
>>>> wrong approach. I have not met yet the developer that has not had a 
>>>> fight
>>>> with a pen tester regarding bugs found...
>>>>
>>>> I think is a waist of money on activities without clear goals and
>>>> measurement of that impact in mind .
>>>>
>>>> Why did only 25 persons voted in the survey when we claim we have more
>>>> than 20K people on the mailing lists?
>>>>
>>>> I''ll stop spamming this list. I hope my message is clear.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Johanna
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Mark Miller <mark.miller at owasp.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Attending, participating and supporting other conferences is a
>>>>> cornerstone of community activity, not just to get our message 
>>>>> out, but to
>>>>> participate in a global ecosystem of DevSecOps.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding participation in other conferences, I can confirm when I
>>>>> produced the DevOps track at RSA Conference 2016 three weeks ago, 
>>>>> we had
>>>>> 600+ people attend the full day of sessions. These were security 
>>>>> people, at
>>>>> a security conference, interested in what was going on outside of 
>>>>> their
>>>>> main area of expertise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:06 PM, johanna curiel curiel <
>>>>> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's why I think heading out to the large cons is a good start.
>>>>>> Yes, I believe so too, however the strategy must not be just to be
>>>>>> there but :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - Do surveys to research more how to engage these devs
>>>>>>    - Just giving a 'talk' does not mean you are really engaging the
>>>>>>    developer audience
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Effective ways to reach these audience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We need to put the helmet of a developers in our heads. Not just
>>>>>> *look* from it from the 'security' perspective
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We 'devs' hate security(many I have speak with including me). It 
>>>>>> makes
>>>>>> our lives difficult, we only want to focus and get the work done 
>>>>>> at the
>>>>>> functional part with all the pressure there is  to deliver and 
>>>>>> produce
>>>>>> software. From the business pov people(aka Sales+Managers) want 
>>>>>> to deliver
>>>>>> software that works and they also tend to forget 'security' as 
>>>>>> part of the
>>>>>> offer (aka quotation and price).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only when they hear there is a 'pen tester' coming, everyone starts
>>>>>> biting their nails 😱
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or when they hear ' the application has been hacked'😵 (which also
>>>>>> happened to me. So you engage most of the time when is to late) 
>>>>>> Then you
>>>>>> get paranoid. then you only think about security about this 
>>>>>> traumatic
>>>>>> experience. So traumatic to me that now I'm into Offensive security
>>>>>> certification, and all kind off 'security mixed' things...I have 
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> 'converted' 😁
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My experience is , developers want easy solutions and not people
>>>>>> preaching to us that is all our blame ... Not preaching to us 
>>>>>> security
>>>>>> especially to those that see this as extra work...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What are other developers experience with security? I would love 
>>>>>> to know
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:46 PM, Bill Sempf <bill at pointweb.net> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:36 PM, johanna curiel curiel <
>>>>>>> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It will be interesting to know *how* to engage properly developers
>>>>>>>> with zero background in security.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't speak for everyone on the initiative team, but this is 
>>>>>>> exactly
>>>>>>> why  I am interested in this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since 2010 I have made "bridging the gap" a core focus of my 
>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>> work. I give developer talks at security cons and security talks at
>>>>>>> developer cons.  Bringing the official OWASP banner to developer 
>>>>>>> cons and
>>>>>>> talking to current devs about what they really need from us has 
>>>>>>> brought be
>>>>>>> personally a lot of targeted focus in my content creation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's why I think heading out to the large cons is a good start.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Noreen Whysel <
>>>>>>>> noreen.whysel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think it is pretty clear. Find out what kinds of developer 
>>>>>>>>> events
>>>>>>>>> people are going to, have a presence at these events, learn 
>>>>>>>>> how they are
>>>>>>>>> reaching, teaching and communicating with the developer 
>>>>>>>>> community, Then
>>>>>>>>> "design an outreach program" part takes into consideration 
>>>>>>>>> what we learned.
>>>>>>>>> I think the last part is what Johanna is interested in and can 
>>>>>>>>> be developed
>>>>>>>>> at a local chapter level or via virtual trainings. But we want 
>>>>>>>>> to do a
>>>>>>>>> little research first to find out how to engage developers and 
>>>>>>>>> where our
>>>>>>>>> message fits.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Noreen Whysel
>>>>>>>>> Community Manager
>>>>>>>>> OWASP Foundation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:20 PM, johanna curiel curiel <
>>>>>>>>> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Just "being there" is a great place to start.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Bill, I believe this already happens. With just being 
>>>>>>>>>> there in a
>>>>>>>>>> form of a booth presence does always help. Thats actually how 
>>>>>>>>>> I got
>>>>>>>>>> involved with owasp, but this is an 'old' strategy, nothing 
>>>>>>>>>> new and only
>>>>>>>>>> has impact on those developers that assist to conferences.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What about all those thousands of devs that cannot pay these
>>>>>>>>>> expensive conferences, living in countries like me?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I support Matt's idea and I just think that it needs to be 
>>>>>>>>>> promoted
>>>>>>>>>> so we can design this outreach, not just as visiting conferences
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Johanna
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Bill Sempf <bill at pointweb.net>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:04 PM, johanna curiel curiel <
>>>>>>>>>>> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We do not reach this community just by assisting to these
>>>>>>>>>>>> conferences.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree comprehensively with this statement. Through
>>>>>>>>>>> participation in developer conferences like CodeMash and 
>>>>>>>>>>> Stirtrek, I have
>>>>>>>>>>> seen quantifiable increase in the 'reach' of security.  All 
>>>>>>>>>>> of the OWASP
>>>>>>>>>>> chapters in the area have seen significant increases in 
>>>>>>>>>>> growth, there have
>>>>>>>>>>> been far more security -focused talks at user groups, and 
>>>>>>>>>>> there has been a
>>>>>>>>>>> significant increase in requests for security expertise from 
>>>>>>>>>>> the area
>>>>>>>>>>> consulting firms.  Just "being there" is a great place to 
>>>>>>>>>>> start.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That said, if something significant is learned while we are 
>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> being there, and it leads to a larger strategy, so be it.  
>>>>>>>>>>> Personally, I'm
>>>>>>>>>>> pleased to see some action on a front of attack, rather than 
>>>>>>>>>>> constant
>>>>>>>>>>> discussion.  It's a low risk activity with a potentially 
>>>>>>>>>>> high reward.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> Johanna Curiel
>>>>>>>>>> OWASP Volunteer
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Johanna Curiel
>>>>>>>> OWASP Volunteer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Johanna Curiel
>>>>>> OWASP Volunteer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>>>> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> *Mark Miller, Senior Storyteller*
>>>>> *Curator and Founder, Trusted Software Alliance*
>>>>>
>>>>> *Host and Executive Producer, OWASP 24/7 Podcast ChannelCommunity
>>>>> Advocate, Sonatype*
>>>>>
>>>>> *Developers and Application Security: Who is Responsible?*
>>>>> <https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Developers_and_AppSec>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Johanna Curiel
>>>> OWASP Volunteer
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> *Mark Miller, Senior Storyteller*
>>> *Curator and Founder, Trusted Software Alliance*
>>>
>>> *Host and Executive Producer, OWASP 24/7 Podcast ChannelCommunity
>>> Advocate, Sonatype*
>>>
>>> *Developers and Application Security: Who is Responsible?*
>>> <https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Developers_and_AppSec>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>
>>>
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