[Owasp-leaders] 2016 Developer Survey Results

Bill Sempf bill at pointweb.net
Wed Mar 23 17:30:22 UTC 2016


Very good idea, Johanna! Much more staying power than the mailing list
(although these are archived, right?) and easier to thread the discussions.

While that is getting populated, I support to continued efforts to reach
out to the developer conferences with an enhanced presence.  When Kelly
sent out the survey, after I filled it out I immediately emailed and
offered my assistance - so there is at least one community member
interested!.

While we are discussing all of these other points in the google group, we
should figure out why only 25 people answered the survey, and people are
questioning the activity only well after the fact.

S

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 12:59 PM, johanna curiel curiel <
johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:

> One more spamming
>
> >>Want to invest your volunteer cycles into a Strategic doing? SIMPLE:
>  Create the committee, ask for others to join to work on it and then it
> becomes the group of volunteers that actually set the agenda and drive it
> forward HELPING staff in reaching their defined goals.
>
> Well this is were we need to begin. It is *US(volunteers,members)* who
> need to drive the strategy.
>
> So I think the order should not be to send a survey first , but motivate
> volunteers to set the strategy for this initiative in the first place.Then
> the staff can expect the support needed.
>
> So now that had been clarified that, lets move on to:
>
> Peeps that want to join the Developer and outreach program sign up here
> and post a topic:
> https://groups.google.com/a/owasp.org/forum/#!forum/dev-outreach
>
> Goals and steps to follow up:
>
>    - Develop a strategy
>    - Create survey with a clear strategy in mind and goals, explain that
>    to the community
>    - Ask for budget to execute strategy
>    - Execute
>    - Measure results
>    - Report results
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Johanna
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Azeddine Islam Mennouchi <
> azeddine.mennouchi at owasp.org> wrote:
>
>> I really get frustrated from this kind of discussions on the list
>> I think that there is a lot of factors that need to be taken in
>> consideration in the strategy a lot of considerations that need to be
>> validated and there is just one way to validate those points is by trying
>> I worked also as a developer for some period and engaged with a lot of
>> them almost all the talks that I did in Algeria and the region were for a
>> dev audience and so little security people and to a certain point I came up
>> with conclusions :
>> 1- security need to be taught with the basics of programming it is always
>> hard to train devs secure programming after they took a lot of insecure
>> habits it is like trying to teach someone to write with his left hand while
>> his all life he was using his right hand
>> 2- security is a choice some people know about it but they tend to ignore
>> it and in this situation I m with Mark we can not teach a fish to climb a
>> tree
>>
>> Now for me what I think it needs to be done is to build a clear
>> stasitical model not 25 answers and attending dev confs.  Would be a great
>> way to build that statistical model.
>>
>> Regards Islam
>> On Mar 23, 2016 4:45 PM, "Mark Miller" <mark.miller at owasp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> > What about those that don't want to listen, could care less to listen
>>>
>>> Then this is not our market. Trying to teach a fish to climb a tree just
>>> gets frustrating for both parties.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 11:36 AM, johanna curiel curiel <
>>> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> >>These were *security people*, at a *security conference*, interested
>>>> in what was going on outside of their main area of expertise.
>>>>
>>>> Exactly, they were ready to listen ;-). They went there because they
>>>> wanted to know more about security.
>>>>
>>>> What about those that don't want to listen, could care less to listen,
>>>> which I think represents the big majority of developers?
>>>>
>>>> If everyone was ready to listen and know about security then the Top
>>>> 10 should have changed since the beginning of time...;-P and we were not
>>>> struggling to promote the message
>>>>
>>>> Just that people understand when I trying to communicate here:
>>>>
>>>>    - I support going to Dev conferences but with a clear strategy in
>>>>    mind which leads to:
>>>>       - Who are you sending and can this 'representative' be able to
>>>>       talk the same language as devs, engage them about security or act as an
>>>>       ambassador?
>>>>       - Are travel costs covered fully for those OWASP leaders willing
>>>>       to assist to these dev conferences?
>>>>
>>>> I think the community wants clarity of the purpose of assisting to devs
>>>> conferences and who will be entitled to assist. I think we need to look at
>>>> experts like Bill and send him to Microsoft Conference to mingle there for
>>>> example.
>>>> These people are knowledgeable, understand perfectly the struggles from
>>>> a developer point of view,  that can talk and understand the issues from *a
>>>> developer point of view*.
>>>>
>>>> But if you send a *no developer* to preach security, or someone that
>>>> has never programmed in that language or platform,  I think this is a very
>>>> wrong approach. I have not met yet the developer that has not had a fight
>>>> with a pen tester regarding bugs found...
>>>>
>>>> I think is a waist of money on activities without clear goals and
>>>> measurement of that impact in mind .
>>>>
>>>> Why did only 25 persons voted in the survey when we claim we have more
>>>> than 20K people on the mailing lists?
>>>>
>>>> I''ll stop spamming this list. I hope my message is clear.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Johanna
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Mark Miller <mark.miller at owasp.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Attending, participating and supporting other conferences is a
>>>>> cornerstone of community activity, not just to get our message out, but to
>>>>> participate in a global ecosystem of DevSecOps.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding participation in other conferences, I can confirm when I
>>>>> produced the DevOps track at RSA Conference 2016 three weeks ago, we had
>>>>> 600+ people attend the full day of sessions. These were security people, at
>>>>> a security conference, interested in what was going on outside of their
>>>>> main area of expertise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:06 PM, johanna curiel curiel <
>>>>> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> >>That's why I think heading out to the large cons is a good start.
>>>>>> Yes, I believe so too, however the strategy must not be just to be
>>>>>> there but :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - Do surveys to research more how to engage these devs
>>>>>>    - Just giving a 'talk' does not mean you are really engaging the
>>>>>>    developer audience
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Effective ways to reach these audience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We need to put the helmet of a developers in our heads. Not just
>>>>>> *look* from it from the 'security' perspective
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We 'devs' hate security(many I have speak with including me). It
>>>>>> makes our lives difficult, we only want to focus and get the work done at
>>>>>> the functional part with all the pressure there is  to deliver and produce
>>>>>> software. From the business pov people(aka Sales+Managers) want to deliver
>>>>>> software that works and they also tend to forget 'security' as part of the
>>>>>> offer (aka quotation and price).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only when they hear there is a 'pen tester' coming, everyone starts
>>>>>> biting their nails 😱
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or when they hear ' the application has been hacked'😵 (which also
>>>>>> happened to me. So you engage most of the time when is to late) Then you
>>>>>> get paranoid. then you only think about security about this traumatic
>>>>>> experience. So traumatic to me that now I'm into Offensive security
>>>>>> certification, and all kind off 'security mixed' things...I have been
>>>>>> 'converted' 😁
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My experience is , developers want easy solutions and not people
>>>>>> preaching to us that is all our blame ... Not preaching to us security
>>>>>> especially to those that see this as extra work...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What are other developers experience with security? I would love to
>>>>>> know
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:46 PM, Bill Sempf <bill at pointweb.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:36 PM, johanna curiel curiel <
>>>>>>> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It will be interesting to know *how* to engage properly developers
>>>>>>>> with zero background in security.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't speak for everyone on the initiative team, but this is
>>>>>>> exactly why  I am interested in this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since 2010 I have made "bridging the gap" a core focus of my
>>>>>>> community work. I give developer talks at security cons and security talks
>>>>>>> at developer cons.  Bringing the official OWASP banner to developer cons
>>>>>>> and talking to current devs about what they really need from us has brought
>>>>>>> be personally a lot of targeted focus in my content creation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's why I think heading out to the large cons is a good start.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Noreen Whysel <
>>>>>>>> noreen.whysel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think it is pretty clear. Find out what kinds of developer
>>>>>>>>> events people are going to, have a presence at these events, learn how they
>>>>>>>>> are reaching, teaching and communicating with the developer community, Then
>>>>>>>>> "design an outreach program" part takes into consideration what we learned.
>>>>>>>>> I think the last part is what Johanna is interested in and can be developed
>>>>>>>>> at a local chapter level or via virtual trainings. But we want to do a
>>>>>>>>> little research first to find out how to engage developers and where our
>>>>>>>>> message fits.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Noreen Whysel
>>>>>>>>> Community Manager
>>>>>>>>> OWASP Foundation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:20 PM, johanna curiel curiel <
>>>>>>>>> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Just "being there" is a great place to start.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Bill, I believe this already happens. With just being there in
>>>>>>>>>> a form of a booth presence does always help. Thats actually how I got
>>>>>>>>>> involved with owasp, but this is an 'old' strategy, nothing new and only
>>>>>>>>>> has impact on those developers that assist to conferences.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What about all those thousands of devs that cannot pay these
>>>>>>>>>> expensive conferences, living in countries like me?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I support Matt's idea and I just think that it needs to be
>>>>>>>>>> promoted so we can design this outreach, not just as visiting conferences
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Johanna
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Bill Sempf <bill at pointweb.net>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:04 PM, johanna curiel curiel <
>>>>>>>>>>> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We do not reach this community just by assisting to these
>>>>>>>>>>>> conferences.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree comprehensively with this statement. Through
>>>>>>>>>>> participation in developer conferences like CodeMash and Stirtrek, I have
>>>>>>>>>>> seen quantifiable increase in the 'reach' of security.  All of the OWASP
>>>>>>>>>>> chapters in the area have seen significant increases in growth, there have
>>>>>>>>>>> been far more security -focused talks at user groups, and there has been a
>>>>>>>>>>> significant increase in requests for security expertise from the area
>>>>>>>>>>> consulting firms.  Just "being there" is a great place to start.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That said, if something significant is learned while we are just
>>>>>>>>>>> being there, and it leads to a larger strategy, so be it.  Personally, I'm
>>>>>>>>>>> pleased to see some action on a front of attack, rather than constant
>>>>>>>>>>> discussion.  It's a low risk activity with a potentially high reward.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> S
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Johanna Curiel
>>>>>>>>>> OWASP Volunteer
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Johanna Curiel
>>>>>>>> OWASP Volunteer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Johanna Curiel
>>>>>> OWASP Volunteer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>>>> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> *Mark Miller, Senior Storyteller*
>>>>> *Curator and Founder, Trusted Software Alliance*
>>>>>
>>>>> *Host and Executive Producer, OWASP 24/7 Podcast ChannelCommunity
>>>>> Advocate, Sonatype*
>>>>>
>>>>> *Developers and Application Security: Who is Responsible?*
>>>>> <https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Developers_and_AppSec>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Johanna Curiel
>>>> OWASP Volunteer
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *Mark Miller, Senior Storyteller*
>>> *Curator and Founder, Trusted Software Alliance*
>>>
>>> *Host and Executive Producer, OWASP 24/7 Podcast ChannelCommunity
>>> Advocate, Sonatype*
>>>
>>> *Developers and Application Security: Who is Responsible?*
>>> <https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Developers_and_AppSec>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
> Johanna Curiel
> OWASP Volunteer
>
> _______________________________________________
> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.owasp.org/pipermail/owasp-leaders/attachments/20160323/357b5a9e/attachment-0001.html>


More information about the OWASP-Leaders mailing list