[Owasp-leaders] next steps

Tony Turner tony.turner at owasp.org
Tue Jun 7 14:42:35 UTC 2016


I'm just curious, what problem is the use of supporter logos intended to
solve? And has the board considered the additional problems their adoption
brings? This whole initiative appears to be very poorly though out and
prone to abuse. Very few people outside of OWASP will understand the
distinction between OWASP Supporter logo and non-Supporter logo and will
quite likely few usage of these logos as endorsements or indicative of some
official relationship. I personally feel its a terrible idea, especially
without a trademark or clear guidelines for usage and penalties for misuse.

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Andrew van der Stock <vanderaj at owasp.org>
wrote:

> For everyone's information, the Board has been working on this for a fair
> amount of time. Tom got the ball rolling with creating these logos, and
> obtaining leader and member feedback on the best logos to use.
>
> Since Dirk's initial questions relating to potential abuse of our logos,
> Josh, Tom, and Michael have met with various open source foundations about
> their trademark / logo usage, and have reported back to the Board. We also
> have acquired some legal advice, and started down the process of filing for
> a TM for our MAIN logo. The supporter logo will be changed once we have
> taken on board legal advice relating to our better understanding of how
> best to protect OWASP as well to get our brand out there.
>
> However, it is my understanding that we will not be satisfying the calls
> for tighter restrictions on the OWASP supporter logo. It's 100% designed to
> be widely used to indicate current membership / sponsorship of OWASP. It is
> both a sign of someone who is a supporter of OWASP, but also in some ways a
> branding / marketing exercise for both the person or companies using it as
> well as OWASP. There might be some changes to the logos once we have
> completed legal advice, but it IS our goal to have the supporter logos
> widely used by those entitled to use it.
>
> The main logo will be more tightly held is my current understanding of the
> situation. We will be finalising our approach at the F2F in AppSec EU.
> Please keep the comments coming in, feedback is always appreciated.
>
> thanks
> Andrew
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Andy Lewis <alewis at owasp.org> wrote:
>
>> +1  I strongly agree w/filing for a trademark immediately if we don't
>> already own it.  There are strong incentives for filing immediately, and
>> needless penalties for delay.
>>
>> If the plan is to resolve this at AppSec EU in a few weeks, please do so,
>> pay to include one or more attorneys, and publish the results.
>>
>> This has been a passionate discussion because we HAVE built a brand that
>> has a good reputation, and abuse of that brand by anyone tarnishes the
>> brand and therefore demeans the value of our outreach and our efforts.
>> Let's protect our property, achieve a decision on usage vs abuse, and get
>> on with our mission in a way that allows us all to feel good about who we
>> are and what we're doing.
>>
>> Trademark first, policies second, open and transparent along the way as
>> always please :-)
>>
>> @Johanna & Dirk - thanks.  There's a balance available somewhere between
>> outreach & abuse.  Thanks for pointing out that we may be out of balance.
>> I've been volunteering at OWASP in one capacity or another for 10 (!)
>> years.  I've been frustrated often, and angered more than once.  You are
>> making a difference.  Only you can decide whether it's worth the
>> frustration.  I hope you decide it is.
>>
>> My 2 cents.
>> Andy
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Dirk Wetter <dirk at owasp.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all and especially global board members,
>>>
>>> to move forward there are also other steps which need to be done (no
>>> sequence suggested):
>>>
>>> A) Don't know whether anything has been discussed in May's board
>>> meeting. The agenda
>>>    doesn't look like it has been the case.
>>>
>>>    My request to the board: Pls discuss logo usage again at the next
>>> board meeting in June.
>>>    Pls check before who in the global board has used or plans to use the
>>> supporter logo. This
>>>    e.g. https://twitter.com/Proactive_RISK/status/732930631626264576
>>> appears
>>>    to me like a conflict of interest.
>>>
>>> B) Before any trademark and good usage guide is established the best
>>> would be
>>>    to pull the supporter logos. It seems to me we're doing the second
>>> step before
>>>    we decided properly on the first. A year to close this gap sounds not
>>> at all good
>>>    to me.
>>>
>>> C) Let's discuss what the benefit for using an OWASP logo for
>>>    externals is as opposed to the risk of commercialization of OWASP.
>>>
>>> D) Consult a lawyer, file for a trademark NOW (wasn't there s.th. wrt
>>> to USPTO?).
>>>
>>> E) Discuss my/other suggestions of branding guide overhauls
>>>
>>>
>>> Again: This is a basic question of how much vendor involvement we want.
>>> Be assured
>>> if there are gaps in the guidelines/no-existing trademarks, some vendors
>>> will always
>>> try to use those gaps. Their agenda is making money and if we do not
>>> clearly define our
>>> red line others will interpret it in a way they like.
>>>
>>> I do not want a future where every vendor can use an OWASP supporter or
>>> OWASP whatever logo.
>>>
>>> Thx, Dirk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 06/06/2016 um 05:33 PM schrieb Dirk Wetter:
>>> > Hi Liam and all,
>>> >
>>> > Am 05/20/2016 um 06:38 PM schrieb Liam Smit:
>>> >> Hi Dirk
>>> >>
>>> >> On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 5:57 PM, Dirk Wetter <dirk at owasp.org <mailto:
>>> dirk at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>     Am 05/20/2016 um 05:07 PM schrieb johanna curiel curiel:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> <snip>
>>> >>
>>> >>     > Abuses will happen where financial gain is.If putting this logo
>>> can help me sell...well you bet the first ones happy will be the vendors.
>>> >>     > Contrast did that with OWASP benchmark publicising OWASP logo
>>> 'sponsored by' even the DHS logo.
>>> >>     > https://twitter.com/jctechno/status/672079500033814528
>>> >>
>>> >>     Ok, a TM would have helped here maybe.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>     But in general this is why I think giving away a supporter logo
>>> is not good either -- the
>>> >>     only point where we have
>>> >>     a different stance so far:
>>> >>
>>> >>     My firm belief is if you give a away a logo you can't control the
>>> usage. It's like putting
>>> >>     a vulnerable
>>> >>     web application in the internet. Somebody will find and
>>> hack/abuse it. It also doesn't
>>> >>     matter if a law is
>>> >>     saying that it shouldn't been hacked [1]. Same with the logo.
>>> Giving a logo away is like
>>> >>     announcing
>>> >>     a vulnerable web app to all bad guys. So a supporter logo could
>>> be an invitation to abuse
>>> >>     (ideas see my first mail).
>>> >>
>>> >>     Also I do not understand the point in the first place: Why do we
>>> want to give a away a
>>> >>     logo? What's
>>> >>     our added benefit?
>>> >>
>>> >>     Thus I find a very strict logo policy accompanied with a proper
>>> TM the right thing to do.
>>> >>     There's
>>> >>     still potential for abuse but at least you did the best
>>> reasonably possible..
>>> >>
>>> >>     Look at ISACA. You can't use the logo without written consent by
>>> ISACA.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Why don't you put forward a strict logo use policy?
>>> >>
>>> >> Obviously it might not be adopted if most people prefer a looser logo
>>> usage policy but if you
>>> >> don't put anything forward then I highly doubt anything will come of
>>> you merely stating your
>>> >> preference for a strict usage policy.
>>> >
>>> > fair enough.
>>> >
>>> > Not so many people responded, so I wanted to limit my investment in
>>> terms of time.
>>> >
>>> > Suggestion:
>>> >
>>> > --snip
>>> >
>>> > The OWASP logo (future: is a trademark and) is the property of the
>>> OWASP Foundation.
>>> >
>>> > * OWASP logos must not be used by individuals or organizations to
>>> promote commercial products,
>>> > services, or events such as conferences, courses.
>>> > * OWASP logos must not be used in a manner that suggests that The
>>> OWASP Foundation supports,
>>> > advocates, endorses, or recommends any particular product, services or
>>> technology.
>>> > * OWASP logos must not be used in a manner that suggests that a
>>> product or technology is
>>> > compliant with any OWASP Materials
>>> > * OWASP logos must not be used in a manner that suggests that a
>>> product or technology can
>>> > enable compliance with any OWASP Materials
>>> > * OWASP logos may be used by special arrangement with The OWASP
>>> Foundation. Requests to use
>>> > OWASP logos should be directed in writing to
>>> >   <fillinmailaddresshere>. Requests will be evaluated on a
>>> case-by-case basis by a compliance team.
>>> > * The special arrangement can be withdrawn by OWASP at any point of
>>> time.
>>> >
>>> > --snap
>>> >
>>> > I was replacing brand by logo. I haven't seen @
>>> >
>>> https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Marketing/Resources#tab=BRAND_GUIDELINES
>>> > any definition of the term "brand". If that would be clarified we
>>> could swap that back.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Cheers, Dirk
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>> German OWASP Chapter Lead
>>> Send me encrypted mails (Key ID 0xB818C039)
>>>
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>>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>
>>
>>
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-- 
Tony Turner
OWASP Orlando Chapter Founder/Co-Leader
WAFEC Project Leader
STING Game Project Leader
tony.turner at owasp.org
https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Orlando
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