[Owasp-leaders] Good bye OWASP leaders - time to leave the hornet

johanna curiel curiel johanna.curiel at owasp.org
Mon Nov 30 21:52:44 UTC 2015

>>We also are too sensitive to offending offenders.

But very insensitive with volunteers.

I have to say that I feel quite offended how I have been treated with all
these questioning and even at the last moment when I'm leaving this
hornet.Littlery HORNET and keep on being stung by board members

In the first place Simon has made a complain.

I provided feedback and made recommendations to the board including the
review. The entire community reacts on twitter including SWAMP , and other

Then what happens? Josh & Matt 'take the time' to talk to Jeff who has
basically demean the entire DAST/SAST industry...no actions are taken

After 2 MONTHS LATER questions are risen AGAIN by Simon and then we stir up
the hornet again.

That  is how you wanted to keep volunteers?

To me this feels and writes DISCRIMINATION.

Yes I'm not Jeff Williams owner of Contrast and sponsor of LASCON, just a
third world woman leaving in a Caribbean Island.

Josh when did you and Matt take the time to speak with me not even using


Check the big Contrast logo!

On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 5:20 PM, Eoin Keary <eoin.keary at owasp.org> wrote:

> Much of our decisions must be based on "doing what feels right" and
> "wisdom of crowds". We need to call foul when we see it and deal with it
> decisively.
> We currently do neither. Gut feeling is normally right.
> We also are too sensitive to offending offenders. Many many times since
> 2013 bad, unethical stuff has occurred and little was done even ignoring
> our compliance officer, whom I guess has not been asked to look at the
> benchmark project?
> This is crucial for OWASP to hold together , nevermind survive.
> Eoin Keary
> OWASP Volunteer
> @eoinkeary
> On 30 Nov 2015, at 8:59 p.m., Jim Manico <jim.manico at owasp.org> wrote:
> > If you need to write rules for everything you won't have volunteers
> doing anything.
> I think this is a super important point. We cannot set policy to cover
> every situation. Our community is full of hackers who exploit weakness in
> policy for a living. Sometimes policy will fail, at OWASP more often than
> not.
> The board and other members of leadership need to step in and be sensible
> during times of crisis.
> If you look at social media, various OWASP email lists, the history of the
> participants and many other facts around this disaster, I think the best
> choice for the foundation is:
> 1) Demote or remove this project from the OWASP project inventory
> 2) Make a clear public statement at our disapproval of this obvious brand
> abuse
> 3) As best we can, try to adjust OWASP brand use guidelines and project
> review criteria
> But please note, I am not king and I never was. I am just one volunteer
> speaking for myself. The board is still discussing this issue and is
> weighing the pros and cons between supporting innovation and protecting the
> brand.
> Whatever happens, there is no winner here. I think this is yet another
> poisonous episode that will diminish the OWASP brand, discourage innovation
> and harm collaboration in our industry. It's a very sad situation and I
> wish I could do more to help.
> I also think the board members who I disagree with are trying their best
> to make good decisions. This is just a very tough one to handle. No one
> wants to set a precedent where the board steps in and demotes or removes
> projects. There will be no winners here.
> - Jim
> On 11/30/15 10:43 PM, johanna curiel curiel wrote:
> >>If you are no longer involved with the Project Task Force, then perhaps
> you could pass that note along to whoever is still involved with it, if
> anyone.
> I'm not your employee, I'm a volunteer. I already took the time to pass
> over the info to Claudia.I explained to her what I used to do even what an
> ex-employee like Kait-Disney used to do and maintain and support the
> Project Task Review with.
> >.Just thought that as the one who initiated the Committee 2.0 framework,
> it might help to answer that "who" question you had.
> Josh. You make this more complicated that it needs to be. The committee I
> formed was just to do reviews:
> https://groups.google.com/a/owasp.org/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/projects-task-force/committee$20project$20review/projects-task-force/-UB_wQmtNO8/qlVnAQbMsjkJ
> If you need to write rules for everything you won't have volunteers doing
> anything.
> Keep it simple. When we think overcomplicated we end up thinking just like
> Monty Python Football...😁
> All you need to do is kick the ball...
> For me is obvious. I just have the feeling that the board does hardly read
> and pay attention to what I have been saying, writing etc.
> Have you though how exhausting is to keep repeating the same story over
> again? Explaining myself every time with all your questioning? Providing
> links, proofs, writing these email...exhausting and waste of time.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur5fGSBsfq8
> People have fun watching, this video is really funny.
> Have a nice week.
> regards
> Johanna
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Josh Sokol <josh.sokol at owasp.org> wrote:
>> If you are no longer involved with the Project Task Force, then perhaps
>> you could pass that note along to whoever is still involved with it, if
>> anyone.  The option is there to revise the guidelines which I would
>> consider to be in scope for this committee.  But, to your point, the
>> marketing with respect to Contrast around the project appears to be outside
>> the stated scope of the committee.  Thus, it is the domain of the Board and
>> we are working on it.  I just thought that as the one who initiated the
>> Committee 2.0 framework, it might help to answer that "who" question you
>> had.
>> ~josh
>> On Nov 30, 2015 1:41 PM, "johanna curiel curiel" <
>> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>> Josh
>>> A stepped down of the Project Review task force on 2nd September 2015
>>> http://lists.owasp.org/pipermail/owasp-board/2015-September/016044.html
>>> >>The Board will still need to provide action on the abuse of the OWASP
>>> brand as there is no committee in place currently to handle these concerns
>>> I handled these concerns very clearly when I sent to you and the entire
>>> community the project review done. I even reacted to Jeff Williams on the
>>> DarkReading website.
>>> BTW that was my last review done with Abbas.We both concluded the same
>>> things and all of these reviews are publicly available on the Project Task
>>> Force email list.
>>> The problems with all the bureaucracy and guidelines and Committees is,
>>> that it is very unclear *who* should take action when brand abuses
>>> occur. That was never responsibility of the PROJECT REVIEW team. Just to
>>> made reviews and advice.
>>> I requested the board to take action , a statement that's what I
>>> recommended, to make clear that OWASP does not endorse the opinions of the
>>> vendor(Contrast) with regard the claims done using OWASP Benchmark.
>>>    - My issue here is that Contrast has misused OWASP Benchmark using
>>>    false claims.
>>>    - Dave Wichers is in a position of Conflict of Interest
>>> And these false claims are also demeaning against SAST/DAST tools as if
>>> IAST is more superior. The arguments are false, nothing can be concluded
>>> for this project as it is in Beta stage, as also experts such as Kevin Wall
>>> has made it clear.
>>> BTW Contrast just changed slightly his website by taking down the
>>> demeaning false statements against DAST/SAST:
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G3u34fxhgnbbYY8VsBmceLUjQPKax0Go1HwlphLK7lw/edit?usp=sharing
>>>    - "Contrast Dominates SAST & DAST in Speed and Accuracy "
>>>    - "SAST & DAST Leave Businesses Vulnerable"
>>>    - "As *clearly demonstrated by the OWASP Benchmark*, this approach
>>>    is not only many times more accurate, but is faster and easier to deploy as
>>>    well."
>>> All this is FALSE FALSE FALSE. Contrast needs to take down all these
>>> statements by using Benchmark as if is true.
>>> Do you need more brand guidelines to take action?
>>> Regards
>>> Johanna
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G3u34fxhgnbbYY8VsBmceLUjQPKax0Go1HwlphLK7lw/edit?usp=sharing
>>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Josh Sokol < <josh.sokol at owasp.org>
>>> josh.sokol at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>> I am sad to see you go, Johanna.  Your efforts with respect to OWASP
>>>> projects has been an inspiration to many, including myself.  Thank you for
>>>> all your hard work and dedication.
>>>> Before you go (assuming you haven't abandoned yet), I would like to
>>>> make a suggestion here.  You are currently leading the Project Task Force,
>>>> which is empowered to act under the OWASP Committees 2.0 framework (
>>>> https://owasp.org/index.php/Committees_2.0).  And as I look to the
>>>> Guidelines for OWASP Projects (
>>>> https://owasp.org/index.php/Guidelines_for_OWASP_Projects) I note that
>>>> these guidelines are maintained under the scope of that committee.
>>>> This page is maintained by the OWASP Project Task Force to help assist
>>>>> Project Leaders with information about successfully running an OWASP
>>>>> Project. It will be updated from time to time, and changes will be
>>>>> discussed and announced on the OWASP-Leaders list.
>>>> The Committees 2.0 framework had the goal of empowering our community
>>>> to effectively delegate power away from the Board and to themselves within
>>>> a pre-defined scope.  The only question in my mind, at this point, is
>>>> whether this committee still has the 5 people necessary in order to hold a
>>>> vote.  If so, I would like to make a few recommendations to the committee:
>>>>    1.  Amend this guideline to include verbiage stating that a project
>>>>    leader must not have a bias that would prevent them from being objective
>>>>    with respect to their project.  If such a bias were to occur, the project
>>>>    leader would be removed and a new leader would need to be found in order
>>>>    for the project to continue as an OWASP project.
>>>>    2. Amend the guidelines around project levels (Incubator, Lab,
>>>>    Flagship) stating that a mandatory requirement for Lab and Flagship
>>>>    projects is that they have a diverse enough set of contributors to support
>>>>    objective efforts.
>>>>    3. Perform a blanket review of projects against these new criteria
>>>>    and adjust accordingly for all projects failing to meet these new
>>>>    requirements.
>>>> I believe that these actions are wholly within the stated scope of the
>>>> committee and is not in violation of our Bylaws Code of Ethics, Mission,
>>>> etc, and therefore, appropriate for the committee to make.  Committee
>>>> decisions are considered official once a record has been published to the
>>>> community.
>>>> The Board will still need to provide action on the abuse of the OWASP
>>>> brand as there is no committee in place currently to handle these concerns,
>>>> but the power to act on the project level is there should you choose to use
>>>> it.  Just a thought since the Board is trying to manage to policy and you
>>>> have the ability to change that.
>>>> ~josh
>>>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 4:24 PM, johanna curiel curiel <
>>>> <johanna.curiel at owasp.org>johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Leaders
>>>>> I have decided that I  stop participating at OWASP as community member
>>>>> , especially being involved in any new activities regarding direct
>>>>> volunteer efforts. If I ever considered running to the board I have
>>>>> definitely desist.
>>>>> Someone would like to know my perspective about my point of view can
>>>>> take the time to read this article:
>>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iNeG2lOBTAo8qsMiNZDARLKm4X727OME50CamzY3vn8/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>> I will keep supporting certain projects as I have direct contact with
>>>>> these project leaders, but I think OWASP is in a process of decay as an
>>>>> organisation.
>>>>> I stop Curacao Chapter , I guess there will be no caribbean region at
>>>>>  OWASP as none of these countries are active. This one is stopping right
>>>>> now. Research initiative too.
>>>>> I'll keep my OWASP mail and I'll be an official member as many are 'on
>>>>> paper'. So yes, you want to contact me and I can help you directly, always
>>>>> welcome.
>>>>> Good luck all to you.
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Johanna
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>>> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
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