[Owasp-leaders] Poor crypto code in OWASP phpsec hurts our reputation

Jim Manico jim.manico at owasp.org
Wed Nov 25 19:16:15 UTC 2015


Abbas,

Totally fair perspective. I am sorry for my earlier calls to have it 
fully deleted. Someone put effort into this, and while inactive and 
possibly insecure, we should respect that work.

Leaving the project on GitHub with clear inactive labels - as well as on 
the OWASP wiki - is a reasonable and responsible approach in my opinion.

Honestly everyone, we are all mostly on the same page here. We agree 
there is a problem to some degree, and we agree we need to take action 
to label or fix this in some way.

- Jim

On 11/25/15 9:12 PM, Abbas Naderi wrote:
> Making it private is basically the same thing as deleting it.
>
> If you want to take over the project, be my guest. Things get less and 
> less open around here everyday after all.
> Regards
> -Abbas
>
>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 2:10 PM, johanna curiel curiel 
>> <johanna.curiel at owasp.org <mailto:johanna.curiel at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Are you basically implying that any insecure project should be 
>> deleted? If that’s the case please provide me a list of OWASP 
>> projects and I’d be happy to report vulnerabilities, then we can 
>> delete them together.
>>
>> I have not say to be deleted. I have asked Claudia to set the project 
>> as 'Private' so inexperience developers don't go and use this library 
>> until fix
>>
>> By the way this is a 'security library' so the responsibility at this 
>> point is higher than other projects.
>>
>> You can try to win  the experts critizing you, if you are able to 
>> accept and discuss with them, how can you together fix it and win 
>> their efforts
>>
>>
>> regards
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Abbas Naderi <abiusx at owasp.org 
>> <mailto:abiusx at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>
>>     Are you basically implying that any insecure project should be
>>     deleted? If that’s the case please provide me a list of OWASP
>>     projects and I’d be happy to report vulnerabilities, then we can
>>     delete them together.
>>
>>     How rational is that argument?
>>
>>     An insecure library needs to be labelled/patched, not removed. I
>>     think that’s enough for users to realize that this library is not
>>     secure, and provide a chance for open source contributors to fix
>>     the issues.
>>
>>     The project is by all means not my darling. I have not coded in
>>     the project, and I don’t remember a single line of code from that
>>     project. However, as my first sentence clearly stated,  your
>>     reasoning for what you are asking for is not very rational.
>>
>>     You could still contact me /before/ going public with this issue
>>     on the leaders list. To me, it seems like you’d rather have your
>>     goal accomplished rather than help solve things. And I’m really
>>     not in favor of that kind of behavior.
>>
>>     Regards
>>     -Abbas
>>
>>
>>>     On Nov 25, 2015, at 2:02 PM, johanna curiel curiel
>>>     <johanna.curiel at owasp.org <mailto:johanna.curiel at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     >>All they want is to delete the code entirely, which doesn’t make
>>>     sense to me at all.
>>>
>>>     Abbas their point is, that is not responsible to leave this open
>>>     if no one is going to document or fix. I don't think is
>>>     responsible to leave an insecure library. And Ii did take the
>>>     time to read the issues they mentioned.
>>>
>>>      You  are the major responsible for your project, not the users
>>>     that pin pointed the issues nor they should go and change when
>>>     they have the opinion that the entire library does not serve the
>>>     purpose.
>>>
>>>     For people who wants to see whole thread can judge by themselves
>>>     https://github.com/OWASP/phpsec/issues/108#issuecomment-159699690
>>>
>>>     I even defend you as volunteer but I have the opinion that we
>>>     have a responsibility towards users especially if you have not
>>>     worked in this project for more than a year and have no time to
>>>     fix issues in a security library.
>>>
>>>     Even Sven who was a contributor in this project accepted that
>>>     this library does not achieve its purpose and should not be
>>>     available to users, is just not responsible.
>>>
>>>     Sometimes we need to kill our darlings...
>>>
>>>     Btw I'm just a contributor as you are.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Regards
>>>
>>>     Johanna
>>>
>>>     On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Abbas Naderi <abiusx at owasp.org
>>>     <mailto:abiusx at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         I’m perfectly fine with criticising and QAing projects.
>>>
>>>         What I’m not fine with, is reading some blogs or posts
>>>         somewhere, without verifying their validity, and then
>>>         putting the blame on our contributors without proper
>>>         investigation.
>>>
>>>         This is not how we defend and motivate our community.
>>>
>>>         Plus, the only solution for a “broken library” is either to
>>>         fix it, or to announce it as broken. These gentlemen
>>>         insisting on removing the library sounds like trolling to
>>>         me. They even refuse to add a README file to the Github repo
>>>         which clearly states that
>>>         this project is inactive and insecure. All they want is to
>>>         delete the code entirely, which doesn’t make sense to me at all.
>>>
>>>         I’m unhappy with your post, because you say “they have valid
>>>         points” without properly investgating. They think they
>>>         didn’t make progress by trolling on Github, and now are
>>>         using you to reflect this issue on the leaders list. You
>>>         could’ve contacted me first and asked about this before
>>>         going public with it. I’m very unhappy with the process you
>>>         have taken for this, undermining a contributor completely.
>>>
>>>         Regards
>>>         -Abbas
>>>
>>>
>>>>         On Nov 25, 2015, at 1:44 PM, johanna curiel curiel
>>>>         <johanna.curiel at owasp.org
>>>>         <mailto:johanna.curiel at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         >>If you’d want to keep your “users” happy and your
>>>>         “contributors” unhappy, you should think of a
>>>>         commercial organisation instead of an open one.
>>>>
>>>>         I think this is a very difficult balance to do. I
>>>>         understand from your pov as contributor but fact is, OWASP
>>>>         has also a reputation of being 'secure' so probably the
>>>>         expectations are higher because we preach security.
>>>>
>>>>         Look ,I volunteer too but my proposals get questioned and
>>>>         criticised  in a way that it feels to me  like I've been
>>>>         questioned as an employee and not a volunteer, but in a
>>>>         certain way, if you look deeply, people questioning my
>>>>         proposals wants to achieve goals that are aligned with
>>>>         OWASP mission. And that means I have to work harder to
>>>>         present my arguments. Not because the effort is
>>>>         'volunteered' means it does not hold certain responsabilities.
>>>>
>>>>         Let  me ask you: Has this project ever been tested to
>>>>         verify how well it works or not? Most projects at OWASP
>>>>         does not have any form of QA. Security libraries hold more
>>>>         responsibility in this case.
>>>>
>>>>         This is a security library and if it contains security
>>>>         issues then this is a problem. This does not align with the
>>>>         mission, even if a lot of work was put to create this project.
>>>>
>>>>         I don't think they are trolling you. They have valid points
>>>>         and their complain is that it is not responsible to leave
>>>>         this library to be used if it holds these issues or are not
>>>>         properly explained. And is not only the crypto issue.
>>>>
>>>>         Regards
>>>>
>>>>         Johanna
>>>>
>>>>         On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Abbas Naderi
>>>>         <abiusx at owasp.org <mailto:abiusx at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>             I agree with all of that.
>>>>
>>>>             This is an open source project. If they find issues,
>>>>             specially tiny issues that can be fixed with a few
>>>>             lines of code,
>>>>             they are welcome to do so. That is not grounds for
>>>>             deleting a project.
>>>>
>>>>             The way I see it, is that they are trolling, and not
>>>>             helping. I have not created this library, and I’m only
>>>>             defending it because it is the right thing to do.
>>>>             If you’d want to keep your “users” happy and your
>>>>             “contributors” unhappy, you should think of a
>>>>             commercial organization instead of an open one.
>>>>
>>>>             Regards
>>>>             -Abbas
>>>>
>>>>>             On Nov 25, 2015, at 1:25 PM, johanna curiel curiel
>>>>>             <johanna.curiel at owasp.org
>>>>>             <mailto:johanna.curiel at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>             Abbas
>>>>>
>>>>>             I think they made very strong points and the project
>>>>>             is right now inactive since it has not been updated in
>>>>>             more than a year.
>>>>>
>>>>>             The people commenting on your project have themselves
>>>>>             quite reputation too.
>>>>>
>>>>>             I think if these issues cannot be fixed by you since
>>>>>             you are the leader and since the project is inactive,
>>>>>             the best is to warn users.
>>>>>             Sven who was a contributor also acknowledge the issues.
>>>>>
>>>>>             By the way , from complains of multiple PHP developers
>>>>>             in the github page of the project to now twitter means
>>>>>             they are not happy and they are trying to escalate
>>>>>             their concerns.Thats how I see this.
>>>>>
>>>>>             regards
>>>>>
>>>>>             Johanna
>>>>>
>>>>>             On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Abbas Naderi
>>>>>             <abiusx at owasp.org <mailto:abiusx at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>                 They are trying to troll the project.
>>>>>                 Read the thread at
>>>>>                 https://github.com/OWASP/phpsec/issues/108#issuecomment-159676446 to
>>>>>                 realize that.
>>>>>                 We have provided ample opportunity for them to
>>>>>                 contribute, fix, or help the project.
>>>>>                 All they want is to take the project down, which I
>>>>>                 obviously refuse.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 I don’t think it really hurts OWASP reputation. If
>>>>>                 anyone delves into the technical discussions that
>>>>>                 would be apparent.
>>>>>                 Regards
>>>>>                 -Abbas
>>>>>
>>>>>>                 On Nov 25, 2015, at 1:17 PM, johanna curiel
>>>>>>                 curiel <johanna.curiel at owasp.org
>>>>>>                 <mailto:johanna.curiel at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 Hi Erlend
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 We are aware of the issues and remediation is
>>>>>>                 underway ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 Johanna
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Jim Manico
>>>>>>                 <jim.manico at owasp.org
>>>>>>                 <mailto:jim.manico at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                     Yup, it's bad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                     Johanna Curiel and Claudia are leading the
>>>>>>                     charge here. They are in the process of fully
>>>>>>                     removing the project from GitHub. As in,
>>>>>>                     right now…
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                     - Jim
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                     On 11/25/15 7:50 PM, erlend.oftedal at owasp.org
>>>>>>                     <mailto:erlend.oftedal at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>                     Hi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                     See
>>>>>>>                     https://twitter.com/voodooKobra/status/669537889500311553
>>>>>>>                     and the link in that message.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                     According to the OWASP website the project
>>>>>>>                     is inactive, yet contributions are made on
>>>>>>>                     github, and there are no signs of the
>>>>>>>                     project status on github.
>>>>>>>                     The crypto code is bad, as voodooKobra
>>>>>>>                     rightly points out. With a known key and iv,
>>>>>>>                     this encryption is useless.
>>>>>>>                     And the code is referenced from stackoverflow++.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                     When deactivating a project we need to make
>>>>>>>                     sure the deactivation is clearly visble on
>>>>>>>                     github as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                     Best regards
>>>>>>>                     Erlend Oftedal
>>>>>>>                     OWASP Norway
>>>>>>>                     @webtonull
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>                     OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>>>>>                     OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>>>>>                     <mailto:OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org>
>>>>>>>                     https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>                     OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>>>>                     OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>>>>                     <mailto:OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org>
>>>>>>                     https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 _______________________________________________
>>>>>>                 OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>>>>                 OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>>>>                 <mailto:OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org>
>>>>>>                 https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Jim Manico
Global Board Member
OWASP Foundation
https://www.owasp.org

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