[Owasp-leaders] [Owasp-board] OWASP Project Manager Report: March 28, 2014

Dennis Groves dennis.groves at owasp.org
Mon Mar 31 14:23:36 UTC 2014

Since the beginning of OWASP things get done by volunteer. That is how it
The staff works hard to facilitate and support the volunteer efforts. That
is they were hired to do.

All this complaining is not useful nor productive. It is destructive. This
is not how we create an open environment it is how you create a closed one
where everybody is afraid to participate because the wolves will come in
and complain - it is not the OWASP way.

This is not life and death, there is not any urgency at all. It is dead

If the volunteers don't like what the volunteers built, then rebuild it!
That is how stuff gets done.

If you have all this energy to complain; then make OWASP better!
Get involved and do something constructive you obviously have the time and



On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 6:49 AM, Samantha Groves
<samantha.groves at owasp.org>wrote:

> Thank you, Johanna.
> Yes, I began to start sending out the surveys late January and was
> attempting to get them filled out for our projects until Friday. However,
> it does seem that a major draw back of what was created is that the survey
> is too complex.
> Johanna is correct when she states that towards the end, the advisors
> began letting me know that they could no longer participate due to work
> commitments. That is understandable and since they were brought on to
> create the criteria itself, and that was created, it was understandable. As
> with all volunteer initiatives, participants drop off on a regular basis
> and new ones come on. We are at a stage, as Leaders have voiced their
> concerns, where we might need to re-evaluate the advisory group, which is
> fair. It might not be the best method of incentivization for the type of
> output that is needed.
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 3:07 AM, johanna curiel curiel <
> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>> Eoin,
>> For clarifications, from my point of view and activities as Project
>> Technical Advisor:
>>    - Last year November we created the final criteria to  analyze the
>>    actual situation of the Projects.
>>    - In order to do proper reviews, It was clear that we need an input
>>    mechanism for the community
>>    - January this year Samantha created Surveys(in google forms) using
>>    OpenSAMM  to gather input from the community
>> When this was proposed, this was my email , dating from 2nd January 2013
>> "Ok, coming back to the survey, I think it's too complex for the average
>> person. In order to be able to fill the survey, the person needs to
>> understand clearly the concepts . I think this survey is fine among
>> professionals working on the  compliance sector but not the general public
>> or user that has tested an Owasp tool or code project."
>> And this is were we are right now, so we need  a proper mechanism to
>> gather input from the community for the projects reviews
>> The only persons from the board actively participating in meetings and
>> reacting were Chuck Cooper and me.
>> Attached file is my work done last year gathering info about all
>> incubator projects and their status. It is clear for me that some are
>> definitely not incubators anymore and many should not even be on the list
>> anymore.
>> We should move forward on promoting these projects to higher status or
>> out of the list. For me this whole process is becoming way to bureaucratic.
>> I like to think in solutions. IMHO we just need simple surveys , asking
>> users and contributors their opinions about the main areas we use in the
>> Project assessment criteria.
>> regards
>> Johanna
>>  Incubator projects -last updates<https://docs.google.com/a/owasp.org/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am8S4R_cON7JdC1DMEVqS2VnZUM3R0x1Y2U1NzQyNXc&usp=drive_web>
>> On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 5:13 AM, Eoin Keary <eoin.keary at owasp.org> wrote:
>>> May I ask where is the output from the advisory board to date?
>>> Eoin Keary
>>> Owasp Global Board
>>> +353 87 977 2988
>>> On 31 Mar 2014, at 01:28, Jim Manico <jim.manico at owasp.org> wrote:
>>> Thank you, Johanna. It seems that the technical review board is "not
>>> happening" and were given a very different message at the board. This will
>>> be a top tier discussion item next board meeting if not sooner.
>>> Thank you for this update.
>>> Aloha,
>>> --
>>> Jim Manico
>>> @Manicode
>>> (808) 652-3805
>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 10:18 AM, johanna curiel curiel <
>>> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>> Hi Jim
>>> Thank you for those kind and motivating words. You are awesome too!
>>> I think we need to be practical.
>>> Meetings with no concrete action plans become tiresome. That's why I
>>> think that most project technical advisers are not participating anymore.
>>> We have reached a criteria to use, but again the input of the community
>>> is the most important one, since judging all these projects must be driven
>>> on input data from valuable sources. The opensamm was an effort that I did
>>> not support. We just need simple surveys to ask users and the community to
>>> score based on (for example):
>>> Usability==> Purpose of the project satisfy a need?
>>> Support from project leader/Contributors==> when user needs help, do
>>> they get it from the community of contributors or project leader?
>>> Documentation==> Is the documentation helpful enough to use the tool or
>>> understand what is the project about?
>>> Easiness of use==> Rate how easy is to install, use, etc
>>> Quality==> Bugs been fixed? Actively maintain? etc..
>>> Each project should have a satisfaction survey, ZAP does, so every
>>> project should do.
>>> How can we make this happen?
>>> regards
>>> Johanna
>>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 6:07 AM, Jim Manico <jim.manico at owasp.org>wrote:
>>>> Johanna,
>>>> You are an awesome, consistent passionate volunteer and I always enjoy
>>>> interacting with you! You're super-sharp and anytime you ask something of
>>>> me I do it (except for pronouncing your home town correctly).
>>>> I would be happy to help with the technical board of advisors or help
>>>> review and manage surveys from the community. The only reason I did not do
>>>> it originally was because of a worry about a perceived conflict of
>>>> interest. I know these emails from me are not easy to digest, but again,
>>>> I'm not just complaining, I'm very willing to help.
>>>> --
>>>> Jim Manico
>>>> @Manicode
>>>> (808) 652-3805
>>>> On Mar 29, 2014, at 8:40 PM, johanna curiel curiel <
>>>> johanna.curiel at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>> Let me clarify here that I did not vote to use this system as rating
>>>> criteria, I mentioned this to Samantha, It did not seemd appropiate and
>>>> actualy the so called board of technical directors is not working, the only
>>>> people that were contributing was me and Chuck.
>>>> in the end, lets face it, none of us neither me nor Chuck took the
>>>> desicion to use OPenSAMM to evaluate projects.
>>>> im a practical person. I told Samatha to just use a simple survey
>>>> where people could vote. she decided to use this system and my opinion,
>>>> it is too complex for evaluating projects, this does not fit.
>>>> So in the end, the one deciding about this was not the board of
>>>> technical advisors which are not participating long ago in any decisions
>>>> been taken.
>>>> Right now, I havent heard anymore about any decisions been taken.
>>>> Regards
>>>> Johanna
>>>> On Saturday, March 29, 2014, Samantha Groves <samantha.groves at owasp.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Agreed. You should have probably spoken to me directly instead of
>>>>> posting 10 rants on public mailing lists. That would have probably been the
>>>>> more respectable and professional thing to do. I did just spend 4 days with
>>>>> after all.
>>>>> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 3:45 AM, Jim Manico <jim.manico at owasp.org>wrote:
>>>>>  Samantha,
>>>>> I am not on the board of technical directors because it is a deep
>>>>> conflict of interest since I manage so many OWASP technical projects. I
>>>>> invest tons of energy and time as an OWASP volunteer in many other ways. I
>>>>> have provided *criteria* for technical project evaluations on several
>>>>> occasions throughout the years as well. Technical evaluation is just one
>>>>> criteria of quality, and yes I've reviewed all the links you shared and
>>>>> think you are mostly on the right track with your evaluation teams.
>>>>> Samantha, evaluating the quality of a OWASP project using OpenSAMM, a
>>>>> Software Development Lifecycle Evaluation criteria, seems so far from the
>>>>> mission of evaluating projects for quality, I felt I needed to step up and
>>>>> speak out so we stop this practice immediately and move to a quality based
>>>>> evaluation.
>>>>> The *measurement* of projects for quality is, per my understanding,
>>>>> the main reason we hired you. You have done a great job of building teams
>>>>> to work on this, but I implore you to condense the evaluation form into one
>>>>> form for each type of project, and minimize the OpenSAMM questions. I am
>>>>> loud about this because I see the evaluations underway already and we need
>>>>> to streamline this process into something that is scalable and effective.
>>>>> I realize you are managing 177 projects *and more*. We may want to
>>>>> change your focus from traveling to conferences (since we hired Laura Grau
>>>>> to manage conferences) so you can focus more on your project management
>>>>> duties. This is of course Sarah's call.
>>>>> I have no problem with your critique of my personality, that's fine.
>>>>> But that does not change the fact that we desperately need proper quality
>>>>> evaluation of projects and I implore you to heed my advice. I see in your
>>>>> report that you are about to undertake a review of all flagships, that is
>>>>> another reason why I am loudly suggesting you change course and stop using
>>>>> the OpenSAMM criteria.
>>>>> - Jim
>>>>>  Jim,
>>>>>  I am sorry to disappoint you, but no you were not the only leader to
>>>>> throw a tantrum on the staff this week. You certainly were one of them, but
>>>>> not the only one. I deal with over 100 leaders in any given day so to
>>>>> assume that my reports are only about your actions is very inaccurate.
>>>>>  Now, I appreciate your concerns, and if you would take the time to
>>>>> read about the very hard work our community members have accomplished
>>>>> (mainly our technical project advisors<http://owasp.blogspot.com/2013/09/meet-our-new-technical-project-advisors.html> who
>>>>> are very "Technical") that were brought together after you refused to help
>>>>> me put this assessment criteria together after yet another tantrum of
>>>>> yours, you would know the hard work that went into creating this
>>>>> system/criteria. I recommend familiarizing yourself with the process before
>>>>> making very inaccurate assumptions about what is actually happening.
>>>>>  What the advisors did at the summit<https://www.owasp.org/images/c/c3/OWASP_2013_PROJECT_SUMMIT_REPORT.pdf>:
>>>>> pg. 25
>>>>>  Definition of assessments/reviews: Chapter 7<https://www.owasp.org/images/d/d8/PROJECT_LEADER-HANDBOOK_2014.pdf>
>>>>>  Jim, I love and respect you as a person, but this behavior is very
>>>>> detrimental to our community and serves no purpose other than to alienate
>>>>> very hard working volunteers that are taking on a task that has not been
>>>>> able to be managed in a very long time (even before my time here) due to
>>>>> the large amount of projects we have in our inventory and the lack of
>>>>> resources we have as an organization. You, as one of our Board of
>>>>> Directors, should know this better than anyone in our community. If you
>>>>> have a better way of managing this, then by all means recommend it. Just
>>>>> remember, I am not managing 5 projects, I am managing 177 and our system
>>>>> must accommodate them all.
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>> Owasp-board mailing list
>>> Owasp-board at lists.owasp.org
>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-board
>> _______________________________________________
>> OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>> OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
> --
> *Samantha Groves, MBA*
> *OWASP Projects Manager*
> The OWASP Foundation
> Phoenix, USA
> Email: samantha.groves at owasp.org
> Skype: samanthahz
> OWASP Global Projects<https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Category:OWASP_Project>
> Book a Meeting with Me <http://goo.gl/mZXdZ>
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Dennis Groves <http://about.me/dennis.groves>, MSc
Email me, <dennis.groves at owasp.org> or schedule a meeting<http://goo.gl/8sPIy>
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