[Owasp-leaders] Would the real OWASP please stand up!
mark.roxberry at owasp.org
Fri Sep 18 01:55:37 EDT 2009
Yiannis sounds like just another coder who hates documentation ;)
In my humble opinion, I like the idea of promoting tools and providing docs
for me to use to show off those tools. I spent an hour at a client showing
them the work that OWASP does - including the presentations from OWASP
Portugal. Sorry, but they are useful. Ask a manager what JBroFuzz is? We
do still work in the real world and have real challenges crossing the
communication divide (and most of my clients require some type of assurance
about tools that can be used in their enterprise). If I can tell that
client, the tool has been seriously evaluated, not necessarily certified but
not something I grabbed off of sourceforge either, and definitely put
through some level of quality assurance and then provide overview and user
materials, it is a win for OWASP and the project. No?
The same Saturday Yiannis asked people to evaluate project quality can be
used by project leaders to put together their project docs. I don't need a
On the matter of "respect", OWASP is respected in my part of the world
(Northeast U.S.). Just talking about what OWASP does to clients has opened
a few doors that I don't think would be opened otherwise. Are there
problems that OWASP folks should know about it and think about addressing?
There may be a better way of addressing this issue than folding in a
critique of the project assessment requirements.
And Yiannis, these guys have put in a lot of time hashing this thing about,
it is not new. Have you brought up your concerns before? If so, forgive
the question, if not, I think it is unfair for you to do it now after the
amount of work that was put in. Again, there may have been a better way of
addressing your concern.
Just my humble opinion,
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Jeff Williams <jeff.williams at owasp.org>wrote:
> I'd like to thank Yiannis for the blunt feedback.
> In some ways I'm nostalgic for one person superhero OWASP projects too. We
> don't want to lose the contributions of people like you who are passionate
> and making a great contribution. I totally agree that we want to enable
> those people to focus on what they're great at and not paperwork.
> I think we should be clear that the GPC is here to *help* projects grow
> cool one-man experiments into teams and ultimately thriving self-sustaining
> communities. The idea is that this path leads to projects that can truly
> make a difference in the security of the world's software.
> But this path is not for everyone. We need to make it easy for any
> researcher anywhere to be able to contribute something cool to the world.
> they want to move along the path towards a release quality project with a
> community supporting it, that's great. But if they don't, we shouldn't
> pester them with paperwork and bureaucracy. Nobody wants that.
> I'd like to ask everyone to check out the
> http://www.owasp.org/index.php/Assessment_Criteria_v2.0 that the GPC has
> together. Let's work to get these right. We also need to make sure that we
> remember that these criteria are not weapons to attack projects that do not
> comply. Instead, these criteria help to define a path that we believe will
> help the OWASP community achieve our mission.
> So, again I'd like to thank Yiannis for speaking up when something at OWASP
> wasn't working. This is how we strengthen our community. Thanks!
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owasp-leaders-bounces at lists.owasp.org [mailto:owasp-leaders-
> > bounces at lists.owasp.org] On Behalf Of Matt Tesauro
> > Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 5:20 PM
> > To: owasp-leaders at lists.owasp.org
> > Subject: Re: [Owasp-leaders] Would the real OWASP please stand up!
> > Answers are inline below:
> > On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 16:40 +0100, Yiannis Pavlosoglou wrote:
> > > So I am sitting there coding away.. A little fuzzer, no more no less,
> > > 16 versions later, pet project, adding some new .NET payloads, new
> > > encodings, etc.
> > I've very aware of your 'little fuzzer' - its been in the Live CD since
> > my initial release. You keep me on my toes to make sure I've got the
> > latest. You've been very good about cranking new
> > versions/improvements.
> > Its a good tool - don't sell yourself short.
> > >
> > > In the process I am wondering what happened to OWASP, how come and no
> > > one finding vulnerabilities in web applications, respects this
> > > organization anymore?
> > >
> > > * You turn up to any other security meeting, you don't even mention
> > > the acronym without getting looked badly upon
> > > * People actually tell me that they avoid going to particular chapter
> > > meetings, because they are sick and tired of presenters implicitly
> > > trying to sell their own company/service/tool
> > I'm fortunate as this hasn't been a problem at my local chapter.
> > > * Project leaders are thinking of pulling their projects from OWASP,
> > > because they are not into filling pamphlets, presentation slides and
> > > assessment criteria; simply they've got a new cool hack for, say,
> > .NET
> > > input validation, embedded in a python script, document it and it
> > just
> > > works! Did you ever see a pamphlet for apache 1.3.27?
> > Please direct your flames my way. I'm the primary author of the
> > Assessment Criteria v2. Unfortunately, until we try and actually use
> > it, its hard to get this kind of feedback. That said, I LOVE this
> > feedback. Its exactly what is needed.
> > Its new and we're still finding the right balance in what is
> > required and what is optional. There are some elements of it which
> > need
> > to be optional. Here's my thoughts:
> > * GPC needs to to a MUCH better job distinguishing what is required for
> > assessments and what isn't. You've taken the brunt of the newness of
> > the criteria v2. I'll gladly fall on this sword. This is not Paulo's
> > fault - he is following what I wrote for v2.
> > * GPC needs to sort out the apps into the appropriate bin (alpha, beta,
> > stable). This is well understood. However, this isn't as easy as we
> > initially expected. (more below)
> > * There are apps which have wanted pamplets, slide decks and the like.
> > If that's not your cup of tea, don't do them. ASVS has them. I'm
> > pretty sure ESAPI has them. The Live CD doesn't. The trick is to find
> > the balance between what is needed and what's the 'extra mile' that
> > some
> > projects find useful. Feedback like this helps find that line in the
> > sand, that balance.
> > > * Chapter leaders do not want to go their own folks and ask for
> > > donations; people that they have been together with from the
> > beginning
> > > of their security careers
> > > And then just as I am about to give up on committees and boards and
> > > members and leaders, I wiz through the testing guide v_22, page 888
> > > and I see a true gem; I download the latest version of orizon and
> > > notice that workaround that would have saved me in the last web
> > > application assessment.
> > One of the end goals of the GPC is to find those gem and figure out a
> > way to show case them. We're not there yet but that's our direction.
> > BTW, totally agree that Orizon is a OWASP Gem. I've made a minor
> > contribution to that project. I wish Paolo and the rest of the
> > contributors the best of luck.
> > >
> > > Is it too much to ask for, cutting through all of this and focusing
> > on
> > > that magic phrase, web application security?
> > >
> > > You want a marketing department? Go hire one! The time that it takes
> > > me to add double encoding payloads for sharepoint into JBroFuzz is
> > the
> > > time wasted on self assessment criteria. Project leader's ego aside,
> > > which one is better?
> > I agree that OWASP _needs_ proper marketing. This is not an area were
> > technical security joes tend to shine. Hiring one does take money and
> > somebody's time to manage that contract. I think that is the sticking
> > point.
> > BTW, the pre-assessment checklist was designed to only take 5 to 15
> > minutes. If that part is taking longer, let me know and we can work on
> > making that easier.
> > >
> > > And whatever happened to being humble and modest if you are good at
> > > what you do, especially in information security.. Blow your own
> > > trumpet, if you've got something to say, not stale news please.
> > >
> > > Yes, continue to evolve and expand OWASP, do make us all proud, but
> > > setup some ground rules to address and harvest knowledge coming in
> > > from the ground. More importantly, get rid of all these silly silly
> > > red tape equivalents. Do not establish anything new (e.g. committees)
> > > without rules on how somebody will loose their status.
> > I'm sorry you got mired in the newness of criteria v2 - I agree bits of
> > it need to be optional, better communicated, automated, etc. Step back
> > for a moment and consider where we started 2009. We had a grab bag of
> > projects on the projects page (~120) in various stages of completion,
> > quality, etc. GPC is trying to gather enough data (really project
> > meta-data) to intelligently sort those into meaningful categories.
> > No we're definitely NOT sourceforge with popularity, number of
> > downloads, and all the other data point you get auto-magically with
> > sourceforge. But, we'll never get there if we don't start _somewhere_.
> > The GPC is currently in the Crawl stage of Crawl, Walk, Run. I'd ask
> > you give us a bit of time to catch our stride.
> > I would like to point out that I'm very happy with the fact that our
> > initial survey of projects helped us find several which were
> > orphaned/no
> > longer maintained. Our ability to not those projects has created the
> > opportunity for new project leads to step up and take over those
> > projects. Its a small victory, but hopefully an example of the
> > goodness
> > the GPC is trying to bring to OWASP projects.
> > >
> > > And then comes the ultimate excuse, "it was out there for all to
> > > comment while we were setting up X". But how can I even comment, when
> > > your definition of X is ill-defined? When you didn't listen on the
> > > problems that its predecessor Y created. If you look at the
> > > power/responsibility ratio in other open source communities (say the
> > > linux kernel) mistakes are guaranteed not to be repeated again. Still
> > > in OWASP, JBroFuzz, still filling in forms, still not release
> > quality.
> > > Paulo is promising that this will be the last time. What was another
> > > true gem that came my way, along the lines of, "we simply don't know
> > > what version your tool is, you need to tell us". Sincerely, if the
> > > about box is not enough? Go google it!
> > Some of this is a chicken and egg problem. I wrote criteria v2, we got
> > a bit of feedback and a lot more once we started using it. As we get
> > feedback, we refine the process. I just don't know of a way to force
> > feedback in an volunteer organization. Sometimes you just have to make
> > a judgment call, implement it, see what happens and make adjustments.
> > That's what we're doing.
> > About knowing your version number, etc. Put yourself in Paulo's shoes
> > for a minute. I bet if I found you stumbling drunk, you could still
> > tell me the latest version number of JBroFuzz. Paulo has no idea. If
> > he has to Google 120+ projects, he burns a lot of time not fixing other
> > issues for OWASP.
> > >
> > > It seems to me a couple of years down the line, it was the tip of the
> > > iceberg trying to get a simple, silly fuzzer to release quality
> > level;
> > > in understanding the real OWASP and seeing how many others, globally,
> > > from founder equivalent level to the non-member level feel partially
> > > similar. Any chance of a change?
> > Feedback provides the mechanism for change.
> > >
> > >
> > > Here are a few suggested (perhaps aggressive) paths:
> > >
> > > * Get the board (someone has to take the heat) to go through the
> > tools
> > > one fine Saturday and decide on the release quality of each one. I'll
> > > buy the pizzas guys! Repeat after 3 months, assign Paulo to speak
> > > their voice
> > Perhaps there is merit in your idea of pizza + 1 Saturday. However,
> > I'm
> > not sure if the effort explaining why project X is beta and project Y
> > is
> > stable after that pizza Saturday is over is less then asking project
> > leads get two peers to review their project.
> > > * Get chapter leaders to (mandatory) go through the presentation of
> > > any speaker and make them take out corprorate piches (even hints)
> > Interesting. This is standard practice for our chapter. Not sure how
> > we enforce this on volunteers though.
> > > * Like the HSBC adds that I see in terminal around the world, respect
> > > local custom and traditions in asking chapter leaders to establish a
> > > unified policy (especially on money matters)
> > This is the domain of the Chapters committee.
> > > * Kick the folks that don't do the work, out! Give them a second
> > > chance, etc. But measure on results.
> > Before we an measure, we need a yard stick. As far as projects are
> > concerned, we're trying to make one with criteria v2.
> > If you don't like how we've made that metric, please continue to
> > provide
> > feedback like this.
> > -
> > -- Matt Tesauro
> > OWASP Live CD Project Lead
> > http://www.owasp.org/index.php/Category:OWASP_Live_CD_Project
> > http://AppSecLive.org - Community and Download site
> > >
> > > a tiny bit fed up Yiannis
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