<div dir="ltr">And I read that in a totally different light. Sarah DID state that she felt this was a bad fit from a legal angle, in so far as the tax liabilities and implications are concerned, which is why she didn't complete the brief. She stated as much in her first email.<div>


<br></div><div>It wasn't until after Jim pushed the point, stating he didn't see a problem, that Sarah "threw up her hands" and stated, "you're not paying me for legal advice" Which I read more as "I gave you my legal opinion and you (Jim) seem hell-bent on ignoring it, so now I'm stepping back"</div>


<div><br></div><div>Sarah knows her JD comes in to play for her position, as far as is allowed by the law. I'm certain she's simply exasperated at the lack of support. When board members question her paid, educated expertise, (not OPINION) how would you expect her to react?</div>

<div><br></div><div>She had made her educated case as to why it was a bad idea and was immediately asked to request the communities OPINION.</div><div><br></div><div>I'd be exasperated too.</div><div><br></div><div>-= GK</div>

</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 4:16 PM, Josh Sokol <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:josh.sokol@owasp.org" target="_blank">josh.sokol@owasp.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I'm not sure where you think it's going, but my comment wasn't supposed to be antagonistic.  I only meant to say that I do think that part of the reason why we hired Sarah was because she could provide valuable legal guidance for the organization and it sounds like for whatever reason she feels like that's not appropriate because her title isn't "General Counsel".  I don't agree with that and do think that we should be seeking (and seriously considering) her legal advice even though it's not given in the role of a lawyer.<br>


<br></div>~josh<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 4:12 PM, Eoin Keary <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:eoinkeary@gmail.com" target="_blank">eoinkeary@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>


<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>I don't like how this conversation is going. We hired Sarah for many reasons, she was considered a good fit.</div>


<div><br></div><div>She can't stand over legal advice I'm assuming but can give some insight and guidance based on her experience.</div><span><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div><br><br>Eoin Keary<div>
Owasp Global Board</div><div><a href="tel:%2B353%2087%20977%202988" value="+353879772988" target="_blank">+353 87 977 2988</a></div><div><br></div></div></font></span><div><div class="h5"><div><div><div><br>On 29 Apr 2014, at 22:02, Josh Sokol <<a href="mailto:josh.sokol@owasp.org" target="_blank">josh.sokol@owasp.org</a>> wrote:<br>


<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>My understanding is that a large part of the reason why the Board is paying you like they are and gave you the pay raise that they did is because of your legal expertise.  In short, my understanding is that your legal background is a large part of the reason why you were selected for the ED position and in a sense we are, in fact, paying you to guide the organization based on your legal expertise.  I don't think anyone expects you to practice law in an area that you're not licensed to do so, but saying that we aren't paying you to give legal advice is a bit of a stretch.<br>



<br></div>~josh<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Sarah Baso <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sarah.baso@owasp.org" target="_blank">sarah.baso@owasp.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>



<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">That's fine - you aren't paying me to be your attorney or give you legal advice and clearly the board and org hasn't been concerned with the legal or tax ramifications of actions in the past.  <div>




<br></div><div>You can go ahead and put this out to the community, but it isn't something I stand behind as a wise business decision at this point.</div><span><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>
Sarah</div></font></span></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Jim Manico <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jim.manico@owasp.org" target="_blank">jim.manico@owasp.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





  
    
  
  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    Sarah,<br>
    <br>
    We are being paid to provide no-warranty open source software. Open
    source licenses cover all of these concerns, except for the business
    competition concern. If this was a "private" project, then I agree
    we have a legal problem. Since this is an open source project for
    the greater community, legal problems about competition are less of
    a problem, I think.<br>
    <br>
    Then again, it depends on the specific deliverable. As long as they
    are all open source related and generic, it's cool, I think.<br>
    <br>
    - Jim<br>
    <br>
    PS: Here is the section Sarah was referring to from
<a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S3J8Krkysqr0m5U9-NLefMCOGvmGFw30oJU-8IMH4zQ/edit?pli=1" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S3J8Krkysqr0m5U9-NLefMCOGvmGFw30oJU-8IMH4zQ/edit?pli=1</a><br>
    <br>
    
    <b style="font-weight:normal">
      <ol style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
        <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:upper-roman;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">





          <p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">Legal</span></p>





        </li>
        <ol style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
          <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:upper-alpha;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">





            <p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">Liability
                for services rendered</span></p>
          </li>
          <ol style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
            <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:decimal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">





              <p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">Volunteer
                  Accountability and Liability - The Volunteer
                  Protection Act (enacted in 1997) provides general
                  liability protection for volunteers when they are
                  acting within the scope of their volunteer
                  role/responsibilities for a nonprofit entity.  If we
                  move to a model where we are paying for work in any
                  capacity, we will need to ensure that our current
                  insurance scales to cover them and us.</span></p>
            </li>
            <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:decimal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">





              <p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">Warranties
                   of the software - When delivering software and
                  especially integrating into another company’s
                  infrastructure, we will likely need to make warranties
                  about the product and disclaimers about operating
                  within the laws of the country.</span></p>
            </li>
            <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:decimal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">





              <p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">Ensuring
                  deliverables - What happens if we break something in
                  the company’s infrastructure?  Do we have a
                  system/personnel in place to fix?</span></p>
            </li>
          </ol>
          <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:upper-alpha;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">





            <p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">Non
                profit status & tax repercussions - the IRS</span></p>
          </li>
          <ol style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
            <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:decimal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">





              <p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">Commerciality
                  Doctrine - In order to maintain tax exempt status a
                  501(c)(3) must operate primarily for the exempt
                  purpose for which it was established.  Courts have
                  taken this one step further and said if a public
                  charity is acting in a commercial manner, this can
                  jeopardize their status as well.  </span></p>
            </li>
            <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:decimal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">





              <p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">Unrelated
                  Business income tax (UBIT)- even if the activity of
                  the charity is not a substantial part of it’s business
                  and is not acting in too commercial of a nature,
                  courts are tightening down on ANY income generated
                  commercial activity being categorized as UBIT and
                  therefore the nonprofit generating the income is
                  subject to paying income tax on that income.  (We
                  currently would pay UBIT on advertising and
                  merchandise income).</span></p>
            </li>
            <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:decimal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">





              <p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">Courts
                  have recently had decisions clearly stating that
                  consulting services is commercial activity and looks
                  at the following items:</span></p>
            </li>
            <ol style="margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
              <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:lower-alpha;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">





                <p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">Is
                    the org selling goods or services to the public - if
                    so, there is a presumption that it is operating in a
                    commercial manner</span></p>
              </li>
              <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:lower-alpha;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">





                <p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">Is
                    the providing the service/good operating at or below
                    cost?</span></p>
              </li>
              <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:lower-alpha;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">





                <p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">Does
                    the organization have employees/contractors
                    providing the work or is it being provided by
                    volunteers?</span></p>
              </li>
              <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:lower-alpha;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">





                <p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.15;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">What
                    are the hours of operation?</span></p>
              </li>
              <li dir="ltr" style="vertical-align:baseline;list-style-type:lower-alpha;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">




<span style="vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-size:13px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family:Arial;font-weight:normal">What
                  other forms of income (such as charitable
                  contributions) does the organization receive?</span></li>
            </ol>
          </ol>
        </ol>
      </ol>
    </b><div><div>
    
    <br>
    <br>
    <div>On 4/29/14, 12:49 PM, Sarah Baso wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">Did you read the brief with my legal concerns?</div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Jim
          Manico <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jim.manico@owasp.org" target="_blank">jim.manico@owasp.org</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
              <div> >  I think we need to have some
                boundaries on this before we go to town on asking the
                community for help (undoubtedly we WILL find people
                willing to help).<br>
                <br>
              </div>
              What boundaries? Why can't we find a (paid) technical
              leader to drive this and then just do it? What part of our
              bylaws prevents this? I am not trying to put extra work on
              you Sarah, I'm suggesting that the board hire someone
              technical to lead this project and help drive the
              deliverables.<span><font color="#888888"><br>
                  <br>
                  - Jim</font></span>
              <div>
                <div><br>
                  <br>
                  <div>On 4/29/14, 12:06 PM, Sarah Baso wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div dir="ltr">Jim and Tom -
                      <div>I haven't gathered feedback from Samantha (or
                        the rest of the staff) yet as I just finished my
                        draft and wanted to get it over to you asap.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>We can certainly send out to the community -
                        but the issue still is going to remain on
                        characterization of the funding and how it will
                        effect our non profit status and infrastructure.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>I think we need to have some boundaries on
                        this before we go to town on asking the
                        community for help (undoubtedly we WILL find
                        people willing to help).</div>
                      <div><br>
                        Sarah</div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="gmail_extra"> <br>
                      <br>
                      <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at
                        6:47 PM, Jim Manico <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jim.manico@owasp.org" target="_blank">jim.manico@owasp.org</a>></span>
                        wrote:<br>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                            <div> > Q2. Do you have any reservations
                              about a OWASP call for comment from the
                              community for additional ideas,
                              suggestions or proposals on this
                              initiative?<br>
                              <br>
                            </div>
                            +1 Yea the more smart eyeballs on this the
                            better. The board is comprised of elected
                            show ponies who won popularity contests, the
                            leaders list has a greater net intelligence.
                            Can we push this out to leaders and see if
                            anyone has the desire (and proper resume) to
                            help lead this?<br>
                            <br>
                            My take is, this is serious open source
                            funding. We could hire someone to lead this
                            project (hire tech resources, get
                            deliverables done). It will help seriously
                            boost a few OWASP projects. I realize this
                            is DHS and that might be a sour to some of
                            our community. But so long as everything we
                            do is open source, I'm pretty flexible about
                            who funds it. My 2 center<br>
                            <br>
                            Regards,<br>
                            - Jim
                            <div><br>
                              <br>
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                                <div>Thank you for putting this
                                  together.<br>
                                  <br>
                                  Tom Brennan
                                  <div>
                                    <div><a href="tel:9732020122" value="+19732020122" target="_blank">9732020122</a></div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <div><br>
                                  On Apr 28, 2014, at 9:03 PM, Sarah
                                  Baso <<a href="mailto:sarah.baso@owasp.org" target="_blank">sarah.baso@owasp.org</a>>


                                  wrote:<br>
                                  <br>
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                                  <div>
                                    <div dir="ltr">All -
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>Here is the (brief) business
                                        plan I put together on the
                                        project and consulting work such
                                        as that being requested by DHS
                                        Swamp.  Admittedly, I stopped
                                        with with the details on what
                                        rolling out a plan would like
                                        this would look like after doing
                                        some initial research on the
                                        legal and tax repercussions for
                                        us.  Additionally, I don't think
                                        this exact model is in alignment
                                        with the charity work we are
                                        trying to accomplish.</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>This is not to say we
                                        shouldn't look for funding
                                        opportunities to develop our
                                        projects - but i don't think
                                        this model is the right one for
                                        us.</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                        <div><a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S3J8Krkysqr0m5U9-NLefMCOGvmGFw30oJU-8IMH4zQ/edit?usp=sharing" target="_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S3J8Krkysqr0m5U9-NLefMCOGvmGFw30oJU-8IMH4zQ/edit?usp=sharing</a><br clear="all">





                                          <div><br>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>I look forward to hearing
                                            your thoughts.</div>
                                          <div><br>
                                            Sarah Baso</div>
                                          -- <br>
                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                            <div>Executive Director</div>
                                            <div>OWASP Foundation</div>
                                            <div><br>
                                            </div>
                                            <div><a href="mailto:sarah.baso@owasp.org" target="_blank">sarah.baso@owasp.org</a><br>
                                              <a href="tel:%2B1.312.869.2779" value="+13128692779" target="_blank">+1.312.869.2779</a><br>
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                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      -- <br>
                      <div dir="ltr">
                        <div>Executive Director</div>
                        <div>OWASP Foundation</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div><a href="mailto:sarah.baso@owasp.org" target="_blank">sarah.baso@owasp.org</a><br>
                          <a href="tel:%2B1.312.869.2779" value="+13128692779" target="_blank">+1.312.869.2779</a><br>
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        <div><br>
        </div>
        -- <br>
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div>Executive Director</div>
          <div>OWASP Foundation</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div><a href="mailto:sarah.baso@owasp.org" target="_blank">sarah.baso@owasp.org</a><br>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div>Executive Director</div><div>OWASP Foundation</div><div><br></div><div><a href="mailto:sarah.baso@owasp.org" target="_blank">sarah.baso@owasp.org</a><br>




<a href="tel:%2B1.312.869.2779" value="+13128692779" target="_blank">+1.312.869.2779</a><br><br><br><br><br></div></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div>Community Manager<br></div><div>OWASP Foundation<br></div><div><br></div><div>Phone: +01.415.742.2342</div><div>Email: <a href="mailto:gk@owasp.org" target="_blank">gksouthwick@owasp.org</a></div>

<div>Twitter: @gksouthwick</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>
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