[Owasp-board] OWASP Summer Code Sprint Proposal

Fabio Cerullo fcerullo at owasp.org
Tue Apr 7 20:27:11 UTC 2015


Jim

On the contrary I have told you many times that the issues raised on this thread will be addressed.

I don’t have any personal interest on this, other than pushing an initiative that will help many OWASP projects.

My main concern here is that the only person who is willing to help out so far might drop the ball and move on. 

Regards,

Fabio Cerullo
Global Board Member
OWASP Foundation
https://www.owasp.org

> On 7 Apr 2015, at 20:58, Jim Manico <jim.manico at owasp.org> wrote:
> 
> > However, I don’t think to be fair some of the comments made here about past experiences.
> 
> Well these are my personal experiences and you should not discount them. You should listen and address them. Especially since you are asking for 30k in budget with a sense of "rushing" and wanting that money cleared right away. 
> 
> The fact that you continue to respond to my (and other) concerns with rejection and suspicion makes me very concerned about approving of these funds.
> 
> And even more concerning is that while you continue to ask for funds, when asked if you would do something as simple as update and maintain the wiki for this program you said no...  so yea. 
> 
> I suggest you address these concerns more head on and respectfully - and actually dive in and help make the program happen by taking on the wiki editing tasks. Really, when asking for (a lot of) money from OWASP you should also be willing to do the work and help make it happen. To ask for a lot of money and then reject simple tasks like wiki on boarding seems a bit out of balance.
> 
> - Jim
> 
> 
> On 4/7/15 2:51 PM, Fabio Cerullo wrote:
>> Jim,
>> 
>> The process could always be improved, and I think we are all in agreement there.
>> 
>> However, I don’t think to be fair some of the comments made here about past experiences.
>> 
>> Kostas is willing to help out in the process of drafting a proposal, setting up the wiki, etc.
>> 
>> It seems no one else is willing to take this onboard and it is quite a significant task.
>> 
>> I would like to have the understanding that he & his project will be able to participate.
>> 
>> Could you & some of my fellow Board members guarantee that?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Fabio Cerullo
>> Global Board Member
>> OWASP Foundation
>> https://www.owasp.org <https://www.owasp.org/>
>>> On 7 Apr 2015, at 17:37, Jim Manico <jim.manico at owasp.org <mailto:jim.manico at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> +1 I agree with Johanna. I participated and watched the entire email chain last year. I am again NOT saying that anyone was unethical, but it was confusing, there were several who leveraged complaints and it felt very disorganized and chaotic.
>>> 
>>> This is just my opinion.
>>> 
>>> I would love to understand (1) how the process will work and (2) how 'conflict of interests' will be handled before the board votes on this rather large budget request. This is nothing special to this potential project, it's something we do or should be doing for any OWASP activity.
>>> 
>>> Aloha,
>>> Jim
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 4/7/15 11:33 AM, johanna curiel curiel wrote:
>>>> Anybody is welcome to participate and don’t like to establish rules about ‘who’ should be participating as the ones you are suggesting.
>>>> 
>>>> Fabio, the rules regarding 'conflict of interest' should be there to avoid any disagreements. Despite the fact that you mentioned how well Kostas lead the Gsoc, anyone who followed the last Gsoc email listing, can say that there were always discussions because rules where not clear. 
>>>> 
>>>> Any auditing will always highlight conflict of interest as an issue and I hope that you understand my p.o.w.
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Fabio Cerullo <fcerullo at owasp.org <mailto:fcerullo at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>> Johanna
>>>> 
>>>> Anybody is welcome to participate and don’t like to establish rules about ‘who’ should be participating as the ones you are suggesting.
>>>> 
>>>> As mentioned earlier, I trust Kostas to do a great job and you are also welcome to participate in the org team / project mentor teams.
>>>> 
>>>> Having said that, I will progress with the project proposal working with him which to my view is transparent and open to everyone.
>>>> 
>>>> If someone from the Global Board disagrees, please let me know. Otherwise I will seek budget approval for this to move ahead.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> Fabio Cerullo
>>>> Global Board Member
>>>> OWASP Foundation
>>>> https://www.owasp.org <https://www.owasp.org/>
>>>>> On 7 Apr 2015, at 16:01, johanna curiel curiel <johanna.curiel at owasp.org <mailto:johanna.curiel at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would definitely support Kostas as overall program admin in case he is interested. Do you agree?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think this should be submitted to a vote, especially depending if Kostas wants to mentor a project or if hackademics is also participating 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Fabio Cerullo <fcerullo at owasp.org <mailto:fcerullo at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>> I think the 2 mentors per student slot makes sense. In case one of the mentors get sick, etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Based on the feedback received and the iterations so far, it seems we have a strong proposal to put up for voting.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would definitely support Kostas as overall program admin in case he is interested. Do you agree?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Fabio Cerullo
>>>>> Global Board Member
>>>>> OWASP Foundation
>>>>> https://www.owasp.org <https://www.owasp.org/>
>>>>>> On 7 Apr 2015, at 15:46, johanna curiel curiel <johanna.curiel at owasp.org <mailto:johanna.curiel at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What do you think? I don’t have time to setup the wiki, etc at present but would welcome your help.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think the rules based on stages seems quite fair to me, however, that is my opinion ;-), another important criteria should be how many mentors are available per project to provide guidance. I think 1 project leader per student should be the minimum (Google uses 2 mentors per project/proposal)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Also it should be clear , in case a mentor is not able to followup or continue with mentoring what should be done and who should follow up this (the org team), therefore , when volunteers want to be part of the program(whether org team/mentor) they must know their responsibilities, after all , we don't want to waste money well intended.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Fabio, if you have no time to set the wiki, someone must take the lead to do this, based on what you have proposed, it seems to me that the person responsible or in-charge of the program should do this. Is it clear who is this person? (will it be Kostas? other ones?)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When i take an initiative, I have always followed these steps (wiki-proposal, publish info, get reactions/adapt) so it is as much transparent as I can do. It is a lot of work but this is part of our responsibilities when managing these kind of initiatives.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> regards
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Johanna
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Fabio Cerullo <fcerullo at owasp.org <mailto:fcerullo at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> Johanna,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks for asking.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I thought about the slot allocation and maybe the criteria is the ‘maturity’ of the project.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://www.owasp.org/index.php/OWASP_Project_Stages <https://www.owasp.org/index.php/OWASP_Project_Stages>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So, based on the project current status: Incubator, Lab, Flagship it is decided the max amount of slots.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Flagship: Max 3 slots
>>>>>> Lab: Max 2 slots
>>>>>> Incubator: Max 1 slot
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What do you think? I don’t have time to setup the wiki, etc at present but would welcome your help.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Fabio Cerullo
>>>>>> Global Board Member
>>>>>> OWASP Foundation
>>>>>> https://www.owasp.org <https://www.owasp.org/>
>>>>>>> On 7 Apr 2015, at 15:24, johanna curiel curiel <johanna.curiel at owasp.org <mailto:johanna.curiel at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 5) Finally, the org team in conjunction with the project mentors team then decide how many slots each project will get.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think , in order to avoid any conflict of interest, the org team members should be an independent member with no ties to any of the participating projects
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So I would like to formally request a budget of USD 30K (3K per slot with a max of 10 slots) to move ahead with this process.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A clear criteria should exist before any approvals are exercised. 
>>>>>>> The board should ask :
>>>>>>> Do we have clear criteria for this program?
>>>>>>> In my opinion, no, just a bunch of emails.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Has it been openly defined for all potential participating members and project leaders?
>>>>>>> No, it should be published on a Wiki and send through the community /owasp-leaders list for people to comment and agree. At least a clear proposal should be setup and published.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> After this process then I think we could go ahead and approve, because its clear what are the rules for participation. There are still some issues that I see as potential conflicts such as for example:
>>>>>>> How many slots can a project get?
>>>>>>> Should a project get more slots than others?
>>>>>>> Based on what exact  criteria should we provide slots?
>>>>>>> Should the org team have tights (such as being an active volunteer) to the participating project(this can be conflict of interest)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> regards
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Johanna
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Fabio Cerullo <fcerullo at owasp.org <mailto:fcerullo at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tobias,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks for your comments.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think an escalation procedure on step #5 is in order in case there is a disagreement between the org team and the project mentors team about slots.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So I would like to formally request a budget of USD 30K (3K per slot with a max of 10 slots) to move ahead with this process.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I will appreciate the support from fellow Board members to make this happen.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Fabio Cerullo
>>>>>>> Global Board Member
>>>>>>> OWASP Foundation
>>>>>>> https://www.owasp.org <https://www.owasp.org/>
>>>>>>>> On 7 Apr 2015, at 13:49, Tobias <tobias.gondrom at owasp.org <mailto:tobias.gondrom at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sounds fair to me. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> With one suggested addition: if there is disagreement in step #5, I like to see this reported to the org team / board / community for resolution without conflict of interest. 
>>>>>>>> If the teams agree with the resolution of step #5, I am happy and favour to go ahead. If there is serious disagreement, I like to hear about it. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Best, Tobias
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 07/04/15 05:33, Fabio Cerullo wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Jim,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Please allow me to explain a submission process might work for everyone:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1) Student review the ideas suggested by mentors. For example, GSOC 2015 Ideas: https://www.owasp.org/index.php/GSoC2015_Ideas <https://www.owasp.org/index.php/GSoC2015_Ideas>
>>>>>>>>> 2) Based on those ideas, the students submit their own ideas/projects. Usually there are dozens of ideas submitted by students, some are good, some are poor, and some are completely new. The mentors are not involved at this stage other than answering questions to the students. There is a deadline for the students submission.
>>>>>>>>> 3) The 'project leaders/mentors team' are the ones who evaluate and pick the best students proposals because they know about their projects. In the past, we allowed all mentors to score all proposals and that is what caused an issue because some people ‘down voted’ other proposals to let their own proposals to score higher. 
>>>>>>>>> 4) The 'org team' makes sure that there is no wrong doing by reviewing scores/etc. Last year, the issue above was identified by Kostas/staff and it was promptly addressed. An additional control that could be implemented, and we were hoping to implement this year at GSOC, is that no mentor could vote on other project proposals (e.g. ZAP mentors cannot down vote on OWTF proposals and viceversa). So that will bubble up naturally all the best proposals for each corresponding project based on scores from the project leaders/mentors. 
>>>>>>>>> 5) Finally, the org team in conjunction with the project mentors team then decide how many slots each project will get.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Does it sound fair?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Fabio Cerullo
>>>>>>>>> Global Board Member
>>>>>>>>> OWASP Foundation
>>>>>>>>> https://www.owasp.org <https://www.owasp.org/>
>>>>>>>>>> On 6 Apr 2015, at 20:07, Jim Manico <jim.manico at owasp.org <mailto:jim.manico at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I suggest the mentors work with students to make great proposals and
>>>>>>>>>> have a •different group vote on who wins•. The whole issue was mentors
>>>>>>>>>> voting on projects and we should consider avoiding that if we
>>>>>>>>>> replicate a similar program at OWASP.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Jim Manico
>>>>>>>>>> @Manicode
>>>>>>>>>> (808) 652-3805 <tel:%28808%29%20652-3805>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Fabio Cerullo <fcerullo at owasp.org <mailto:fcerullo at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The ‘Mentors team’ will review/score the proposals and select the best ones with an oversight from the ‘Organisation Team’.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Owasp-board mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Owasp-board at lists.owasp.org <mailto:Owasp-board at lists.owasp.org>
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-board <https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-board>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Owasp-board mailing list
>>>>>>> Owasp-board at lists.owasp.org <mailto:Owasp-board at lists.owasp.org>
>>>>>>> https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-board <https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-board>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
> 

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