[Owasp-board] Fwd: OWASP Training Model - Request to vote

Tobias tobias.gondrom at owasp.org
Mon Mar 3 15:44:36 UTC 2014


Hi Sarah,

I totally agree with you.

And my understanding was also that the trainer would effectively only
donate all income or the surplus to OWASP, but not that OWASP would take
liability for travel expenses if we can't get enough attendees.

So yes, the trainer would still have to cover any losses in travel costs
if they occur (due to low attendee numbers).

Best, Tobias



On 03/03/14 15:37, Sarah Baso wrote:
> Hi Fabio -
> I don't see any issues per se except in the instance that the trainer
> doesn't receive enough registrations to cover his/her travel costs.
>  Does that mean OWASP is to cover that loss (which we usually do not)?
>  I would think the trainer would still cover those costs....especially
> since we aren't setting any limit on travel expenses. So, for example
> if a trainer wanted to submit for the AppSec APAC event from Latin
> America, obviously the costs of travel would be much higher than if
> he/she was from the APAC region (or the country where the conference
> is being held).  We/OWASP cannot make a stand alone decision on the
> benefit of the training from the perspective of the individual
> delivering the training - they may be trying to build their business
> in the region, or have other clients to meet with, or just want to
> visit and trying to recoop SOME of their costs.  My concern if OWASP
> is to cover is that we have no mechanism to limit the travel costs.
>
> If the trainer will still be covering any loss in travel costs (the
> amount of their travel less the amount earned in the training), I have
> no issues and support this proposal.
>
> Sarah
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 3:42 AM, Fabio Cerullo <fcerullo at owasp.org
> <mailto:fcerullo at owasp.org>> wrote:
>
>     Tobias,
>
>     Sounds good to me... only wanted to have the blessing from the
>     Global Board.
>
>     If everyone believes there is no need for a vote, I will follow up
>     with the Ops team.
>
>     @Sarah, could you please let me know your thoughts on this?
>
>     Thanks
>     Fabio
>
>
>     On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 10:22 AM, Tobias <tobias.gondrom at owasp.org
>     <mailto:tobias.gondrom at owasp.org>> wrote:
>
>         Hi Fabio,
>
>         like the idea, but I fail to see why the board needs to vote
>         on this.
>         It does not change the currently existing training model and
>         is merely an conveniently added option to the existing contract.
>         I would see this in the capable hands of our ops team and
>         their advise.
>         Have you talked with them about this yet?
>
>         Best regards, Tobias
>
>
>
>
>         On 03/03/14 09:43, Fabio Cerullo wrote:
>>         hi there,
>>
>>         I would like to include this topic for voting today.
>>
>>         Although donating training funds is possible, and some of you
>>         are already doing it, the fact to have it in writing as an
>>         optional item in the contract makes it visible to ALL
>>         potential trainers in the future.
>>
>>         Any questions, please let me know.
>>
>>         Thanks,
>>         Fabio
>>
>>         ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>         From: *Fabio Cerullo* <fcerullo at owasp.org
>>         <mailto:fcerullo at owasp.org>>
>>         Date: Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM
>>         Subject: OWASP Training Model - Community Vote Results
>>         To: "owasp-leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>         <mailto:owasp-leaders at lists.owasp.org>"
>>         <owasp-leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>         <mailto:owasp-leaders at lists.owasp.org>>
>>
>>
>>         Hi there,
>>
>>         You could find below the poll results of the proposed changes
>>         to the OWASP Training Contract.
>>
>>         https://docs.google.com/a/owasp.org/spreadsheets/d/1oDmVQKlFQIvnfXJOnUaEG7UB5aQ_QpYbZDnA1AHZAns/edit?usp=sharing
>>
>>         Based on these results, I will propose a few changes to the
>>         wording of the contract at the upcoming Global Board meeting.
>>
>>         - Include an optional checkbox at the bottom of the contract
>>         that states "I hereby donate my proceedings to the OWASP
>>         Foundation and/or OWASP project of choice."
>>         - Include an optional checkbox at the bottom of the contract
>>         that states "I only want to receive travel expenses as sole
>>         compensation for delivering this training. The reimbursement
>>         limit is USD XXX (US American dollars) as stipulated and
>>         agreed with the OWASP Foundation"
>>
>>         I'm looking forward to your feedback.
>>
>>         Thanks,
>>
>>         Fabio
>>
>>         On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 6:42 PM, Jerry Hoff <jerry at owasp.org
>>         <mailto:jerry at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>
>>             Hi team,
>>
>>             For the upcoming training at AppSec APAC, I simply asked
>>             Laura if my proceeds could be donated directly to the
>>             Tokyo OWASP chapter who is hosting the event, minus the
>>             printing of the books.  This was not done strictly out of
>>             altruism, I wasn't comfortable writing in my SSN in on a
>>             word document and sending it over email.
>>
>>             I think we should be good to go on this one - Laura took
>>             care if it easily (thank you Laura) - anyone can do this
>>             as of now! :) 
>>
>>             Grazie,
>>             Jerry
>>
>>
>>             --
>>             Jerry Hoff
>>             @jerryhoff
>>             jerry at owasp.org <mailto:jerry at owasp.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>             On Feb 19, 2014, at 1:08 PM, Fabio Cerullo
>>             <fcerullo at owasp.org <mailto:fcerullo at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>
>>>             Eoin,
>>>
>>>             We are not trying to make significant changes here...
>>>             only remove the burden of debit/credit transactions from
>>>             trainer to OWASP.
>>>
>>>             By placing a checkbox in the contract, any trainer who
>>>             is willing to donate the earnings to OWASP could do so
>>>             by just opting-in. Then the transaction becomes
>>>             transparent and there is no debit/credit involved - 100%
>>>             funds go directly to the OWASP Foundation or project of
>>>             choice. I'm sure Alison will appreciate knowing this
>>>             beforehand.
>>>
>>>             A different topic altogether is the request from OWASP
>>>             trainers to deliver training absolutely free. I'm aware
>>>             at least Jim and Simon are willing to deliver trainings
>>>             at no cost during major OWASP conferences and they found
>>>             some friction.
>>>
>>>             The survey is just a pulse from the OWASP community, no
>>>             guarantees anything will change but when there is a will
>>>             things usually happen.
>>>
>>>             Regards
>>>             Fabio
>>>
>>>
>>>             On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 3:22 PM, Eoin Keary
>>>             <eoin.keary at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>                 Currently there is nothing stopping trainers
>>>                 delivering classes for free. Jim and myself have
>>>                 been doing this since 2012. We are doing it next
>>>                 week in San Francisco. We have both partially self
>>>                 funded the trip.
>>>
>>>                 If a trainer wants to charge and donate 100% of the
>>>                 fees to owasp there is nothing to stop this also.
>>>                 The 60/40 is a default setting. It encourages high
>>>                 quality training and trainers but also generate
>>>                 revenue for the foundation.
>>>
>>>                 So what happens after the result of this vote? Do
>>>                 anything really change given all scenarios are optional.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                 Eoin Keary
>>>                 Owasp Global Board
>>>                 +353 87 977 2988 <tel:%2B353%2087%20977%202988>
>>>
>>>
>>>                 On 19 Feb 2014, at 14:25, Fabio Cerullo
>>>                 <fcerullo at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>                 Dear all,
>>>>
>>>>                 As per the current OWASP Training Model (see
>>>>                 https://www.owasp.org/index.php/File:Training_Instructor_Agreement.doc),
>>>>                 the payment schedule for OWASP major conferences is
>>>>                 established as a 60/40% split between OWASP/Trainer. 
>>>>
>>>>                 Also, the travel expenses are currently covered by
>>>>                 the trainer. It has been proposed a different
>>>>                 payment schedule in which trainings are offered for
>>>>                 free or to only cover the expenses for the trainer
>>>>                 and all proceedings going to the OWASP Foundation
>>>>                 and/or a particular project. 
>>>>
>>>>                 For full details about the various proposals
>>>>                 discussed at the OWASP Leaders mailing list, please
>>>>                 visit:
>>>>                 http://lists.owasp.org/pipermail/owasp-leaders/2014-February/010869.html
>>>>
>>>>                 Could you please cast your vote in the following
>>>>                 link to answer the question:
>>>>
>>>>                 Should OWASP allow other options in addition to the
>>>>                 current training model?
>>>>
>>>>                 https://docs.google.com/a/owasp.org/forms/d/1OMmIHFLm6fouHwfSLB9sA7lCwvqtB4hdE8cnUFZ4meo/viewform
>>>>
>>>>                 Lines are open for the next 72 hours (until
>>>>                 Saturday 22rd February at 00:00GMT). After that
>>>>                 time, votes will be counted and results announced.
>>>>
>>>>                 Make your voice count! 
>>>>
>>>>                 Regards,
>>>>                 Fabio
>>>>
>>>>                 _______________________________________________
>>>>                 OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>>                 OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>>                 https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>
>>>
>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>             OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>             OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>             <mailto:OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org>
>>>             https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
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>>         Owasp-board at lists.owasp.org <mailto:Owasp-board at lists.owasp.org>
>>         https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-board
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Executive Director
> OWASP Foundation
>
> sarah.baso at owasp.org <mailto:sarah.baso at owasp.org>
> +1.312.869.2779
>
>
>
>

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