[Owasp-board] [Owasp-leaders] OWASP.next

Jim Manico jim.manico at owasp.org
Thu Apr 10 23:10:54 UTC 2014


Abbas,

The OWASP board list is open 
https://lists.owasp.org/listinfo/owasp-board and please proxy any notes 
from your friend to the leaders list if you want to reach the leader 
community. There is also a variety of ways folks can contact the 
foundation officially here 
https://www.owasp.org/index.php/About_The_Open_Web_Application_Security_Project#Contacting_OWASP 
which includes a contact form that hits the staff here 
http://www.tfaforms.com/308703 or you can just email support at owasp.org

Can you think of any other forms on infrastructure that we can add to 
support our active volunteers? We are listening as best we can...

Aloha,
Jim



On 4/10/14, 7:04 PM, Abbas Naderi wrote:
> Thanks Jim, Josh and Eoin.
> I'm only stating "my cases" as an example. Its not just about me, its 
> about people who have felt like I have, with nowhere to go, no earts 
> to talk to.
> We need an infrastructure to support these causes. What if someone who 
> doesn't know Jim, Eoin or Josh had a problem?
>
> For example, I recently had one great contributor join OWASP for RBAC 
> project, and he was doing excellent job. He rather left the community 
> because of the problems he had. He didn't know enough people to push 
> his cause forward, and someone with higher authority just decided that 
> he shouldn't be there.
>
> Regards
> -Abbas
> ______________________________________________________________
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> On Apr 10, 2014, at 6:57 PM, Eoin Keary <eoin.keary at owasp.org 
> <mailto:eoin.keary at owasp.org>> wrote:
>
>> Assuming its not about me, please feel free to email me directly any 
>> time or call me on the number below.
>>
>> Eoin Keary
>> Owasp Global Board
>> +353 87 977 2988
>>
>>
>> On 10 Apr 2014, at 23:06, Abbas Naderi <abiusx at owasp.org 
>> <mailto:abiusx at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>
>>> Unfortunately I have tried a few times to do this, but without 
>>> proper support it is just a dead cause. Its not that i'm trying to 
>>> state my opinion here, I'm trying to describe issues that several 
>>> members of the community face, and have discussed to me in person, 
>>> but don't have enough motivation to pursue. Its not about me, its 
>>> about making the community a better place for everyone. Its about 
>>> saving it.
>>> -A
>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>>
>>> On Apr 10, 2014, at 6:03 PM, Josh Sokol <josh.sokol at owasp.org 
>>> <mailto:josh.sokol at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Abbas,
>>>>
>>>> Just because you didn't get elected doesn't mean that you have to 
>>>> throw in the towel.  I know what I promised to do when I ran for a 
>>>> Board seat, but can't say that I remember everything that everyone 
>>>> else said they would do.  As with anything, the devil is in the 
>>>> details, but I'm certainly not opposed to your idea.  I don't think 
>>>> there's anything currently stopping you from running a petition if 
>>>> you feel that the Board has done something egregious that needs to 
>>>> be undone.  The couple of initiatives that I've passed since being 
>>>> elected were done with unanimous support of the Board and majority 
>>>> support from those who responded from the community inquiries.  The 
>>>> concept of a veto is a bit more difficult to enforce and I'm 
>>>> curious how this would work in practice.  Is there a percentage of 
>>>> people that would have to respond to a veto request? Do they have 
>>>> to be members?  Is there a number of "in favor" votes that has to 
>>>> be reached for it to be successful?  Is there a time constraint on 
>>>> how long after an action is initiated that it can be repealed?  Are 
>>>> there others in the community who feel like the Board has done 
>>>> something so egregiously bad that it needs to be repealed?  
>>>> Regardless, I'd be happy to work with you to set up a formal 
>>>> proposal here if you'd like to do so?
>>>>
>>>> ~josh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 4:46 PM, Abbas Naderi <abiusx at owasp.org 
>>>> <mailto:abiusx at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Josh,
>>>>     If you remember, I had similar ideas for the board, as I was
>>>>     running for it as well. My idea was to allow a veto role for
>>>>     the community, because it is not viable and clever to ask for
>>>>     community polls on typical matters, as it does not involve
>>>>     everyone, and they clearly won't participate when they are not
>>>>     involved.
>>>>
>>>>     But a veto role, is a different matter. If someone in the
>>>>     community feels undermined by a process enforced by the board,
>>>>     they can run their campaign, get more votes and undo the
>>>>     decision they though was wrong in the first place. This is what
>>>>     we need, and those decisions are really hurting people, making
>>>>     them lose hope for the better in this community.
>>>>
>>>>     Unfortunately the previous board and the current board haven't
>>>>     done anything significant towards this, and it seems to me that
>>>>     no priority effort is being made.
>>>>
>>>>     Thanks
>>>>     -Abbas
>>>>     ______________________________________________________________
>>>>     *Notice:***This message is *digitally signed*, its *source* and
>>>>     *integrity* are verifiable.
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>>>>     AbiusX.com <http://abiusx.com/>
>>>>
>>>>     On Apr 10, 2014, at 5:42 PM, Josh Sokol <josh.sokol at owasp.org
>>>>     <mailto:josh.sokol at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>     Abbas,
>>>>>
>>>>>     One of the ideas that I (and I believe Tobias as well)
>>>>>     championed when running for the Board was the idea of bringing
>>>>>     the power back to the community.  I have raised this as an
>>>>>     item to the Board with the hopes of adding a sort of community
>>>>>     referendum to the election later this year.  In the meantime,
>>>>>     you have seen several examples of polling the community for
>>>>>     input on various topics and we are working to bring you a new
>>>>>     voting platform that will allow even more of this type of
>>>>>     community inquiry.  The caveat is that people have to actually
>>>>>     vote and, as is the case with the latest poll, our "turnout"
>>>>>     numbers have been relatively low. Since the community is made
>>>>>     up of more than just leaders, you've seen Michael's proposal
>>>>>     to transition to a full community involvement model instead of
>>>>>     just having a leaders list and hopefully this will increase
>>>>>     those poll numbers even more.  In my opinion, the issues that
>>>>>     you bring up are in large part due to actions by the Board in
>>>>>     the past and I do see the current Board trying to address
>>>>>     them.  Change won't happen overnight, but I do see us moving
>>>>>     in the right direction.  Hopefully you can stick around long
>>>>>     enough for us to right the ship.
>>>>>
>>>>>     ~josh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Abbas Naderi
>>>>>     <abiusx at owasp.org <mailto:abiusx at owasp.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>         Dennis,
>>>>>         That is a perfectly valid explanation. I have been faced
>>>>>         with several of these myself, and it has really affected
>>>>>         the way I love and contribute to OWASP. Now when I have an
>>>>>         idea, instead of making it an OWASP project, I look
>>>>>         elsewhere for a platform, and all of you people know me
>>>>>         and probably are aware of the contributions I have made to
>>>>>         the community over several years.
>>>>>
>>>>>         The list you provided is most of the cases, but there are
>>>>>         definitely cases not mentioned there, like manipulating
>>>>>         and forcing decisions and actions at the board level.
>>>>>
>>>>>         I believe we need a change of management model for OWASP.
>>>>>         This is clearly not working (IMHO) and these days I have a
>>>>>         deep sensation of leaving it all for good and spending my
>>>>>         time somewhere more productive.
>>>>>
>>>>>         Thanks
>>>>>         -Abbas
>>>>>         ______________________________________________________________
>>>>>         *Notice:***This message is *digitally signed*, its
>>>>>         *source* and *integrity* are verifiable.
>>>>>         If you mail client does not support S/MIME verification,
>>>>>         it will display a file (smime.p7s), which includes the
>>>>>         X.509 certificate and the signature body.  Read more at
>>>>>         Certified E-Mail with Comodo and Thunderbird
>>>>>         <http://abiusx.com/certified-e-mail-with-comodo-and-thunderbird/> in
>>>>>         AbiusX.com <http://abiusx.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>>         On Apr 10, 2014, at 5:06 PM, Dennis Groves
>>>>>         <dennis.groves at owasp.org <mailto:dennis.groves at owasp.org>>
>>>>>         wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>         Michael,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         I applaud you Michael for taking the reigns of leadership
>>>>>>         and setting both a vision and a positive example for
>>>>>>         OWASP. What a great post! You have really captured the
>>>>>>         spirit of OWASP and I hope you succeed in keeping it
>>>>>>         alive. Like you, I stand behind both the awesome staff
>>>>>>         and community of OWASP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         However, I have great concerns about the future of OWASP,
>>>>>>         because the board serves as an example for the community.
>>>>>>         As you have indicated you cannot do this alone, we all
>>>>>>         have to pitch in. Not everybody on the board is a rotten
>>>>>>         apple, most of you are awesome. Unfortunately it only
>>>>>>         takes one rotten apple to spoil the whole barrel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Some examples I have observed of rotten leadership:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           * Publicly undermining OWASP employees by an OWASP
>>>>>>             Board member.
>>>>>>           * Publicly undermining OWASP volunteers by an OWASP
>>>>>>             Board member.
>>>>>>           * Privately undermining OWASP leaders by an OWASP Board
>>>>>>             member.
>>>>>>           * Privately undermining OWASP employees by an OWASP
>>>>>>             Board member.
>>>>>>           * Publicly undermining OWASP projects by an OWASP Board
>>>>>>             member.
>>>>>>           * Privately undermining OWASP projects by an OWASP
>>>>>>             Board member.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           * OWASP Board members have caused OWASP to lose money
>>>>>>             from conference revenues.
>>>>>>           * OWASP Board members have caused OWASP to lose
>>>>>>             corporate sponsorship's.
>>>>>>           * OWASP Board members have caused OWASP to lose projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           * OWASP Board members have harassed OWASP employees
>>>>>>             privately.
>>>>>>           * OWASP Board members have abused OWASP employees publicly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         All of these things have gone on habitually. Most of the
>>>>>>         time they are thinly veiled under the guise of 'ethics'
>>>>>>         and yet all of these behaviors are in direct conflict
>>>>>>         with the duty of loyalty to the OWASP foundation.
>>>>>>         /Additionally, it sets up an unprofessional example of
>>>>>>         'standard of behavior' for the community to follow, and
>>>>>>         this is exactly what is happening./
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         I regularly hear from both sponsors and leaders that no
>>>>>>         longer want to participate in OWASP anymore due to the
>>>>>>         examples I have cited above. I spend my OWASP donation
>>>>>>         hours managing fires like this, when I could be building
>>>>>>         and contributing to the community with my precious little
>>>>>>         free time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         It has come to a point that I may no longer recommend
>>>>>>         that the public join or support OWASP because of the
>>>>>>         unprofessional behavior emanating from the board. /And I
>>>>>>         feel it is a very sad day when *I can not recommend*
>>>>>>         OWASP, something I genuinely want to be proud to be a
>>>>>>         part of, to people I love and respect./
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         -- 
>>>>>>         Dennis Groves <http://about.me/dennis.groves>, MSc
>>>>>>         Email me, <mailto:dennis.groves at owasp.org> or schedule a
>>>>>>         meeting <http://goo.gl/8sPIy>.
>>>>>>         /This email is licensed under a CC BY-ND 3.0
>>>>>>         <http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/3.0/deed.en_GB> license./
>>>>>>         Stand up for your freedom to install free software.
>>>>>>         <http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot/statement>
>>>>>>         Please do not send me Microsoft Office/Apple iWork
>>>>>>         documents.
>>>>>>         Send OpenDocument
>>>>>>         <http://fsf.org/campaigns/opendocument/> instead!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         <http://www.owasp.org/>
>>>>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>>>         OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>>>>         OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>>>>         <mailto:OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org>
>>>>>>         https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>>         OWASP-Leaders mailing list
>>>>>         OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org
>>>>>         <mailto:OWASP-Leaders at lists.owasp.org>
>>>>>         https://lists.owasp.org/mailman/listinfo/owasp-leaders
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
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