[Owasp-board] FW: Tix to Irvine
dinis.cruz at owasp.org
Tue Aug 24 00:19:51 UTC 2010
Some comments below (I will leave out both our sarcasm notes (which I did
apologise fo mine in advance))
On 23 August 2010 22:10, Jeff Williams <jeff.williams at owasp.org> wrote:
> The essence of leadership is to be compelling about what you want to
and also to try new ideas to see if they work
> Our job on the board is to consider ideas like this carefully and make good
That is what I was trying to do
> If you want us to approve your nutcase ideas, then convince us.
I don't think that those are nutcase ideas, but lets move on
> That does not mean a long-winded rambling email. Spend some time to **
> craft** your argument.
That is what I was trying to do, but I didn't had the hours required to
'craft' the type of argument that you were expecting, specially when there
is such an obvious (to me) case to support/accept it.
Btw, I do think that I make good points on those Rambles :)
> Think about Dave’s objections in advance. Make us share your vision.
I was trying to
> To me this is a simple question of maximizing the use of our dollars in
> accomplishing our mission.
> Dinis is provocatively arguing that investing this money in our leaders
> will grow OWASP.
Yes, that is exactly one of the areas that in my view OWASP should be
spending some of its limited financial resources
> Others are thinking that this money could be better spent.
Sure, and those 'others' should put forward ideas and plans for how that
money should be spent.
> Now I’d appreciate it if we could get a little reality. What do you think
> the maximum cost to OWASP actually is?
Depends on the number of 'training tickets' we give out. In the beginning,
since this was an experiment to see what would happen, I was thinking that
we should try to a max of 5x tickets (max cost to OWASP about 2500/3000
USD). But now, since this idea is dead-on-the-water, the maximum we will
spend is Tony's ticket which is about 550 USD (since we have to pay the
trainer for that space)
> Does anyone know if leaders pay to attend classes? I bet not too many.
I don't don't, and that was exactly what I was trying to find out.
Unfortunately, your lack of support prevents me/us to find that out (since
the only way to know is to ask our leaders 'OK, who wants to go?')
> I’m quite sure that NONE of the all stars that Dinis listed would pay to
> take a class.
Of course not, which is the point that I am trying to make. The principle of
charging for leaders to attend trainings is a really bad one, and should
only happen when all other alternatives have been exhausted (or we run out
of an allocated budget).
And you still have not answered where you would draw the line. I.e. which
OWASP leaders should pay?
> So that leaves the cost of leaders blocking out paying students.
No that is not the problem Jeff.
If you read Kate's email, you will see that the problem is that we have to
pay the trainer for those extra students (part of the contract). Now of
course, that if this become popular with our leaders, then (maybe even as
soon as the next DC conference) we could incude as part of our contract for
the training the fact that we will give a couple free-student-tickets to
> Most of our classes aren’t totally full, right?
Yes I believe most are not full, and again, we could have a 'stand-by'
clause where we could top-up those courses with OWASP Leaders
> This is a tempest in a teapot.
I agree, which is the real reason of my frustration. Something that could
had been solved in a couple simple emails, is now consuming tons of hours
> Let a few leaders fill empty seats in classes for free. We won’t lose
> money and we get the benefit.
Wrapping up, the current cost per seat is about 500USD, so the question
should had been how much should we invest in this activity for our leaders.
One more item to talk about at the Irvine Board meeting....
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