[Owasp-board] (Request for [email protected] special item for OWASPmembers) Fwd: Carolina Blue Sweatshirt

Dinis Cruz dinis at ddplus.net
Tue Nov 6 23:03:50 UTC 2007


Sorry Andrew, but there are numerous things on your email that I don't agree
at all (there are also some valid points (like the free shwag) which we need
of course to be sensitive too)

The main one is the financial, you are having a VERY conservative view of
OWASP's financial situation. I haven't looked at the last numbers (still
waiting for Dave who should have them ready by the conference) BUT if 1200
USD could be an issue for OWASP then we have bigger problems.

I really don't want to have a lengthy emails discussion here, since some of
these issues will be better debated in person next week, but here are some
extra comments:

   - I am approaching this issue as part of the 'OWASP member pack'
   creation process, which is something that has been on the works for some
   time, and in my view this would be another small step on that direction
   - Two weeks ago I emailed you guys (namely Dave) and asked for the
   possibility of having a special shirt or sweatshirt to give to OWASP
   members, and the answer I got was 'good idea but I don't think that we
   will have time to print and deliver it in time'
   - So the problem was a logistic one, and not a financial nor
   strategic, nor a 'free shawg' one
   - Since then I have tried two routes to get this done. I had several
   email exchanges with Dan Cornell to see if we could do it via CafePress, and
   I contacted Deb Brewer from LxStudios (a good friend who owns a design
   company in Boston) to see if she had a supplier that could handle this
   request.
   - luckily Deb's supplier could (and can) still do it, so the only
   issue was to get you guys to buy in the idea. There is still the 'small'
   matter of converting our logo into a 2 color format so that it can be
   printed which Deb will sort out for us

Bottom line, I want to try this service, see how the SweetShirts will look
like and don't want to mess around with Deb who is going out of her way to
help us,

SO, what I will do is, I will order 25 SweetShirts with OWASP logos on it,
PAY for them with MY OWN card, and organize its distribution at the
conference. It's going to cust 600 USD, so it wont break my bank either.

Sorry, to be pushing so strongly on this one, but from experience, the way
we get to final products (like the OWASP member pack) is to go though
several mini-steps like this one (and like the DVD distribution which only
now is about to be distributed (I will send more details about the issues we
had with that one in another email)).

Ok, so problem solved. Both parties got their way :)

I got the SweatShirts and you guys raised your issues and we didn't do this
via OWASP.

Dinis



On 11/6/07, Andrew van der Stock <vanderaj at owasp.org> wrote:
>
> I vote NO on the basis that the conference is just around the corner, and
> it's another $1200 we didn't expect to spend this close to the conference.
> I'm okay with this idea for future OWASP conferences (Australia / EU) as
> long we have taken care to plan and budget for the free shwag, and take into
> consideration those folks who will prohibited from attending if we have *
> any* free shwag. And that last one isn't a red herring, it stopped me
> attending things in the past, and it's a rule at most of the larger
> organizations.
> For any future conferences, it's my view that shwag should be no more than
> 5% of the gross income derived from attendees, capped at $30 for those folks
> paying more (like sponsors etc).  If it's too much stuff, many companies
> have anti-graft policies which prohibit gifts greater than $10, and
> attendees can't come if it becomes well known that there's major shwag. At
> the NAB, I was prohibited going to free Microsoft launches for example,
> because they would give away full copies of software worth several hundred
> dollars. Being a Mac dude simply didn't cut the mustard as I might have sold
> the product on eBay and been motivated to plug MS to continue getting more
> free shwag. Most conferences, including the $1200 ones like Black Hat, give
> you nothing beyond a badge and a CD and a bag full of marketing material.
>
> Whilst we are a non-profit, it doesn't mean everything we do must break
> even. Members should not be getting 100% of the fees back in shwag and other
> considerations. That's not how it works - we provide value to them by doing
> member *oriented *stuff and promoting our mission and our field, not
> returning their money to them in the form of t-shirts and books. If we
> returned all the money in the past, we could never grow and never have
> afforded to grow to the point where we can afford to do the grants. We
> should be making money from the t-shirts and books, not giving them away.
> People do not value "free". That is not to say we shouldn't have a member
> pack with stuff useful to the members in it, but it should be a minute
> percentage of the fee we get from them.
>
> Conferences are a major source of income over the entire year to pay for
> things like our admin person, hosting, servers, software (like the copy of
> Pagemaker), and obviously our core programs, such as the Grants and so on.
> We can't keep on spending $1200 here and $5000 there - as soon enough we
> don't have enough money to pay salaries and keep the link alive.
>
> The amount of stuff we can spend on an event should not be looked at as a
> bottomless bag of money or a zero sum game, just because it might raise $X
> amount or we get a sponsorship here or there. Far too often recently, I've
> read "let's spend X sponsorship on this particular thing". That is how you
> get into credit card debt - matching income to specific purchases. We don't
> have credit, and must never get there for operating expenses. Although I am
> not against progress, we must be responsible, or otherwise we will have to
> become far smaller than we are today and lose all the momentum we have built
> up.
>
> Dinis, you have great ideas, and please don't stop them. But let's get
> into discussions about how we can best make use of the budget we have for
> the *next* conference, balancing our needs to grow in our activities
> versus "free" shwag for members. As I understand it, we have ribbons or
> similar (a la Black Hat and most other conferences I've been to) to
> differentiate speakers, etc. That's enough for this conference considering
> that it is on in less than two week's time.
>
> thanks,
> Andrew
>
>
> On Nov 6, 2007, at 3:43 PM, Dinis Cruz wrote:
>
> Humm, I am not getting a warm feeling of support from you guys on this
> idea. Remember that the objective is to give our members something extra,
> and that I will help with the extra logistics.
>
> The cost here is about 1200 USD with a unit cost (with shipping) of about
> 24 USD, which since our non-individual membership starts at 2000 USD, so
> this is not really a cost issue.
>
> Let make this simple: Yes or No?
>
> I vote YES
>
> Dinis
>
> On 11/6/07, dave wichers <dave.wichers at owasp.org > wrote:
> >
> > I think it will be difficult to ID members since many speakers are also
> > members but they didn't register as members.  Its also warm in SJ  so people
> > won't wear then there. I'm also concerned about the cost relative to
> > membership fee's.
> >
> > People also don't wear sweatshirts to professional events / offices
> > which is where most people wear shirts and stuff with professional logos. I
> > can't imagine when I would wear one, for example.
> >
> > -Dave
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Dinis Cruz" <dinis at ddplus.net>
> > To: "Jeff Williams" <jeff.williams at aspectsecurity.com >
> > Cc: "OWASP Board" <owasp-board at lists.owasp.org>
> > Sent: 11/6/2007 12:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Owasp-board] (Request for [email protected] special item
> > for      OWASPmembers) Fwd: Carolina Blue Sweatshirt
> >
> > I REALLY want to give our member something unique! Specially something
> > they
> > could wear on the day which 'differenciates' them from the 'other' non
> > members.
> >
> > For now, my main focus are our members, so I would say that we get 50,
> > give
> > them to the members that are there (starting with the non-individual
> > ones),
> > and then figure out what to do with the rest (probably give them to
> > owasp
> > leaders on a first come first server basis)
> >
> > Since the numbers are not that high (50), I can help with the logistics
> > on
> > this one :) since this activity falls into my OWASP evagelism activities
> > :)
> >
> > So are you guys OK with it?
> >
> > Dinis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/6/07, Jeff Williams < jeff.williams at aspectsecurity.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >  Since everyone is already getting a shirt I think this may be
> > overkill
> > > and one more logistical thing to deal with.  I do like the idea of
> > doing
> > > this kind of thng to encourae the leaders.  We do have a slight
> > problem
> > > defining exactly who a leader is... Some chapters have multiple people
> > > signed up.
> > >
> > > --Jeff
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Dinis Cruz" < dinis at ddplus.net>
> > > To: "OWASP Board" <owasp-board at lists.owasp.org>
> > > Sent: 11/6/2007 10:52 AM
> > > Subject: [Owasp-board] (Request for [email protected] special item for OWASP
> > > members) Fwd: Carolina Blue Sweatshirt
> > >
> > > Hi guys
> > >
> > > Using a good friend in the US (who is into design production) we are
> > able
> > > to get the following deal: a Carolina Blue Sweatshirt for about 22 USD
> > with
> > > an extra 75 USD delivery (if we order 50 it should be a total of 1200
> > USD).
> > > See below for a screenshot and some more details.
> > >
> > > Since we are going to have at the conference about 40 representatives
> > from
> > > current OWASP members, I would like to propose that we give each one
> > them
> > > and all participating OWASP leaders one of these Sweetshirts. This
> > would be
> > > a good 'kudos' item, and if the sweetshirts look ok, we could even put
> > them
> > > in the OWASP member pack.
> > >
> > > What do you guys say? Are you OK to go ahead with this?
> > >
> > > We really need the decision today
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Dinis
> > >
> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > From: Deb Brewer <deb at lxstudios.com>
> > > Date: Nov 6, 2007 2:14 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Carolina Blue Sweatshirt
> > > To: Dinis Cruz < dinis at ddplus.net>
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Dinis!
> > >
> > > The first scenario you typed, one flat rush fee of 75, we don't have a
> > > rush fee on each shirt.
> > >
> > > Are you cool with the 1-color rendition of the logo?
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11/6/07 8:17 AM, "Dinis Cruz" <dinis at ddplus.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Hi Deb
> > >
> > >         Will the final price be something like ($20 * 50) + $75    (
> > i.e.
> > > 50 items at $20 each plus $75 for shipping)
> > >
> > >         or
> > >
> > >         ($20 + $75) * 50    (i.e. $95 per item x 50)
> > >
> > >
> > >         If we are talking about 50 t-shirts
> > >
> > >         Regarding sizes I would say all XL (to make it simple)
> > >
> > >         Dinis
> > >
> > >
> > >         On 11/6/07, Deb Brewer <deb at lxstudios.com    <
> > > mailto:deb at lxstudios.com <deb at lxstudios.com>> <mailto:
> > deb at lxstudios.com< deb at lxstudios.com>>
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >                 Hi Dinis,
> > >                 Here is rough pricing on the shirt below. I'll have to
> > > convert the art to one color (will print white underneath and then a
> > dark
> > > blue for the graphic) in order to make this deadline. What do you
> > think? Do
> > > you think you'll want to proceed ? Sorry I can't pull it off in full
> > color.
> > > She'll need our order approval ASAP. I can firm up pricing when I know
> > what
> > > sizes you need. Talk soon! D
> > >
> > >                 2-color left chest
> > >                 S-XL: $20.43
> > >                 XXL:  $25.04
> > >                 Rush Charge: $75; Expedited shipping, UPS Red to reach
> >
> > > Californ. By Nov. 14
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >                 Carolina Blue.
> > >                 Qtys available are:
> > >                 96 med; 120 XL; and 48 @XL.
> > >
> > >                 Can  you let me know ASAP so we can place an order and
> > not
> > > lose the stock.
> > >                 We will have to ship overnight as this vendor is not
> > > within a 1-day ship zone.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >                 ------ End of Forwarded Message
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
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