[Global_chapter_committee] Issue with new leader

Sarah Baso sarah.baso at owasp.org
Thu Jun 6 16:44:33 UTC 2013


I have to say that although I understand the concerns being voiced by
Richard and Neil - I agree with Josh and this really gets to the heart of
it. It is unfortunate that in an area like OC where there is much interest
for more meetings (by the sounds of it) and individuals willing to help out
with running more meetings, Shong isn't necessarily violating any terms of
the chapter handbook (unless I am missing something here). I have talked
with Shong (not since early this year) and am more than happy to do it
again, but if there hasn't been a chapter handbook violation, we can't
really force any new policies on him.

Regards,
Sarah


On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Josh Sokol <josh.sokol at owasp.org> wrote:

> The Board should not be responsible for contacting this leader.  As this
> situation has been brought to the Directors (Kate and Sarah) and Chapters
> Committee multiple times in the past, we have already had these
> discussions.  If my memory serves me, Sarah had a phone conversation with
> Shong Chong and he felt like he was being a bit persecuted here.  While not
> up to the highest standards, the leader has always maintained compliance
> with the guidance in the Chapter Leader Handbook and we have never found
> cause to remove him.  Looking at the OC Chapter page, he held a meeting in
> January and May and has another one scheduled for July.  We leave
> individual chapter structure up to the leaders so having a Board around him
> or lack thereof is his decision.  IMHO, we should not be installing a new
> Board to undermine whatever authority he has.  When we had a similar issue
> in Australia, my suggestion was to, for this specific circumstance, allow
> another chapter to be created with a different name, but covering a similar
> geography.  The chapter members will ultimately vote with their feet or
> perhaps all of the people and companies in the area are enough to support
> two chapters.  In any case, trying to depose a chapter leader who is
> abiding by the handbook just because he's not holding up to someone else's
> standard is not okay.  My $0.02.
>
> ~josh
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 10:04 AM, Richard Greenberg <
> richard.greenberg at owasp.org> wrote:
>
>> It's not "we", it's "they". I'm the President of OWASP LA.
>>
>> Maybe holding an election is the best approach. And, based on the density
>> of OC, make the number of Board Members around 5 or 6.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Richard Greenberg, CISSP
>> President, OWASP Los Angeles, www.owaspla.org <http://www.appsecusa.org/>
>> ISSA Fellow
>> Board of Directors, ISSA Los Angeles, www.issa-la.org<http://www.appsecusa.org/>
>> LinkedIn:  http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardagreenberg
>> (424) 261-8111
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Eoin <eoin.keary at owasp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, I'll email him tomorrow.
>>> Do you guys not elect members?
>>>
>>>
>>> Eoin Keary
>>> Owasp Global Board
>>> +353 87 977 2988
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6 Jun 2013, at 16:42, Richard Greenberg <richard.greenberg at owasp.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> You made the request to speak with him. Neil and I both sent you
>>> different email contacts. I just received an email last week from:
>>> shong.chong at owasp.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, we need much better leadership on the OC Board. At this point, I
>>> am making a formal request to the OWASP Board to add more Board members. If
>>> you desire, I have a number of responsible colleagues who have an interest
>>> in helping. OC is a huge densely populated area with numerous tech firms,
>>> in areas such as Irvine. To have a lack of appropriate OWAP leadership in
>>> this high profile area is a terrible situation and compromises our mission.
>>> I have tried to make this clear to this and the previous Board on many
>>> occasions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is time for some action! OWASP has always been comprised of
>>> passionate members, of which I am one. Please do not misinterpret my
>>> intentions nor be put off by my style. I have no motives other than what we
>>> all want: to be able to share our beliefs and knowledge to as many in the
>>> web app community as possible. This is not being done in OC today, nor at
>>> any point since Neil stepped down.
>>>
>>> Richard Greenberg, CISSP
>>> President, OWASP Los Angeles, www.owaspla.org<http://www.appsecusa.org/>
>>> ISSA Fellow
>>> Board of Directors, ISSA Los Angeles, www.issa-la.org<http://www.appsecusa.org/>
>>> LinkedIn:  http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardagreenberg
>>> (424) 261-8111
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 7:09 AM, Eoin <eoin.keary at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Email bounced.
>>>> Is this not an owasp staff task?
>>>> We don't have a chapters committee anymore.
>>>> I'd ask Sarah or Kate to fix this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eoin Keary
>>>> Owasp Global Board
>>>> +353 87 977 2988
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6 Jun 2013, at 15:55, Richard Greenberg <richard.greenberg at owasp.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Was it that you haven't had a chance to contact Shong, or did you make
>>>> an attempt and he didn't respond?
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Eoin <eoin.keary at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I did not manage to get in touch.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Richard Greenberg, CISSP
>>>> President, OWASP Los Angeles, www.owaspla.org<http://www.appsecusa.org/>
>>>> ISSA Fellow
>>>> Board of Directors, ISSA Los Angeles, www.issa-la.org<http://www.appsecusa.org/>
>>>> LinkedIn:  http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardagreenberg
>>>> (424) 261-8111
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 6:12 AM, Richard Greenberg <
>>>> richard.greenberg at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Eoin,
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you please describe your experiences contacting Shong?
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Greenberg, CISSP
>>>>> President, OWASP Los Angeles, www.owaspla.org<http://www.appsecusa.org/>
>>>>> ISSA Fellow
>>>>> Board of Directors, ISSA Los Angeles, www.issa-la.org<http://www.appsecusa.org/>
>>>>> LinkedIn:  http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardagreenberg
>>>>> (424) 261-8111
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Eoin <eoin.keary at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you send on the contact details for the current inactive leaders?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eoin Keary
>>>>>> Owasp Global Board
>>>>>> +353 87 977 2988
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27 Apr 2013, at 20:15, "Richard Greenberg" <
>>>>>> richard.greenberg at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am the LA Chapter leader, and have made several attempts at doing
>>>>>> exactly what you propose; to no avail. This has dragged on for years. Time
>>>>>> for action.
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> *From: * Eoin <eoin.keary at owasp.org>
>>>>>> *Date: *Sat, 27 Apr 2013 14:16:09 +0100
>>>>>> *To: *Richard Greenberg<richard.greenberg at owasp.org>
>>>>>> *Cc: *Neil Matatall<neil.matatall at gmail.com>; Jim Manico<
>>>>>> jim.manico at owasp.org>; tom.brennan at owasp.org<tom.brennan at owasp.org>;
>>>>>> Sebastien Deleersnyder<seba at owasp.org>; dave wichers<
>>>>>> dave.wichers at owasp.org>; global_chapter_committee at lists.owasp.org<
>>>>>> global_chapter_committee at lists.owasp.org>
>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: Issue with new leader
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am happy to help here.
>>>>>> I believe our executive director and her team should talk to OC
>>>>>> leadership and see what can be improved.
>>>>>> If the chapter is not "active" as per our definition and there are
>>>>>> other people who would like to make it more so, them this is a positive.
>>>>>> There is no "I" in OWASP
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eoin Keary
>>>>>> Owasp Global Board
>>>>>> +353 87 977 2988
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27 Apr 2013, at 07:45, Richard Greenberg <
>>>>>> richard.greenberg at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My understanding is that there is a renewed effort to take action
>>>>>> regarding ineffective and almost non-existent leadership at OWASP Orange
>>>>>> County.  The current leaders do not uphold the minimum activity
>>>>>> requirement of holding 4 meetings a year as stated in the Chapter Leader
>>>>>> Handbook, and should be removed. This is not a new issue, and in fact, I
>>>>>> have sent several emails previously about this disturbing subject.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wanted to remind all of you about the previous attempts that I have
>>>>>> made to try to influence the OC Chapter to at least have regularly
>>>>>> scheduled meetings and communicate effectively with the many in OC who have
>>>>>> an interest in OWASP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wanted to also remind the Committee that the OC Chapter is in an
>>>>>> incredibly dense populated area, one with a very large
>>>>>> IT corporate presence. The lack of leadership and direction since Neil
>>>>>> Matatall stepped down as leader is extremely harmful to the OWASP
>>>>>> mission. We really are not in a position to allow this to continue. As you
>>>>>> can see, from previous attempts I had made to effect change, included
>>>>>> below, this has been going on for several years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I encourage you to take action, as recommended by Neil, and refresh
>>>>>> your memories of this situation by referring to my missives below. There
>>>>>> are many qualified individuals who are very happy to step up and
>>>>>> volunteer their e time and energy to reinvigorate the OC Chapter. They have
>>>>>> no interest in working with the current leaders.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard Greenberg, CISSP
>>>>>> President, OWASP Los Angeles, www.owaspla.org<http://www.appsecusa.org/>
>>>>>> ISSA Fellow
>>>>>> Board of Directors, ISSA Los Angeles, www.issa-la.org<http://www.appsecusa.org/>
>>>>>> LinkedIn:  http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardagreenberg
>>>>>> (424) 261-8111
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard Greenberg <richard.greenberg at owasp.org>
>>>>>> 11/28/11
>>>>>>   to Tom, Josh, Neil, Sarah, Kelly
>>>>>>  Tom,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for joining in. Below is the initial e-mail from Neil on the
>>>>>> subject. When I heard of Neil's departure, I immediately tried to help.
>>>>>> Neil had tried to jumpstart the OC Chapter and held a sucessful event
>>>>>> on January 28th, 2011. Since then, there has been virtually no activity
>>>>>> form this chapter. I tried reaching out to Shong, both vis e-mails and
>>>>>> phone calls, and his response time of a week left me very surprised. Tin
>>>>>> had expressed to me that previously he had a similar experience on another
>>>>>> matter in which he had trouble getting responses from Shong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Wiki lists Shong Chong and Rob LaViolette* as Orange County
>>>>>> Co-President*s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When we finally spoke, I told Shong that I know of dedicated and
>>>>>> passionate people ready and willing to step up and help, and that we in LA
>>>>>> would be willing to help, as well. He said thanks, but that he wanted to
>>>>>> assess the situation and look at where they should be going, now that Neil
>>>>>> had left. Curiously, if they were all "Co-presidents, shouldn't they
>>>>>> already know this? If not, then they really weren't really co-presidents,
>>>>>> which is my suspicion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The last OWASP OC twitter was Aug 31st.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bottom line: no activity in almost a year and bad communication
>>>>>> habits, unsuitable for a Chapter lead. There also has been no apparent
>>>>>> planning, and I was a bit shocked at his lack of enthusiasm and willingness
>>>>>> to jump on my offer of help and getting new potential Board members.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> His company, Hireright, is listed a s a sponsor on the Wiki.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Speaking of the Wiki, Neil is still listed as a leader, and he is the
>>>>>> only one whose e-mail is listed. Thus, there is no apparent way for anyone
>>>>>> to contact anyone at OWASP OC since Neil departed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can assume that you, like me, who I know is passionate about OWASP,
>>>>>> find all of this at the very least highly disappointing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Richard Greenberg <
>>>>>> richard.greenberg at owasp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have had a similar experience. Clearly this current individual is
>>>>>>> unqualified and inappropriate as a chapter leader, or even
>>>>>>> a board Member.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have assured this person that we have quaified and very interested
>>>>>>> people willing to step in and cotinue Neil's wqork on building an active
>>>>>>> and enthusiastic chapter. However, he has no interest.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suggest the Chapter Committee appoints a temporary Board, and
>>>>>>> elections are held pretty soon. Wqe in LA have always been willing to help
>>>>>>> in whatever way we can,m until an official board is established.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, November 9, 2011, Neil Matatall <
>>>>>>> neil.matatall at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> > Hello Chapters committee,
>>>>>>> > I recently gave up my duties as the Orange County, CA chapter
>>>>>>> lead.  When I left, I declared that the chapter should be merged with the
>>>>>>> LA chapter because I felt there were no adequate replacements for me in OC.
>>>>>>>  After the announcement, an individual stepped up.  While I did not believe
>>>>>>> in him, I wanted to give him a chance.
>>>>>>> > This was clearly a mistake.  Many people have already come to me
>>>>>>> seeing what I can do to help them work with said individual.  He is not a
>>>>>>> bad person, he is just not right as the Orange County chapter lead.  His
>>>>>>> communication skills alone have made this incredibly frustrating and it is,
>>>>>>> to be frank, going to officially drive the chapter into the ground.
>>>>>>> > I have had many unreturned calls and emails and that is just
>>>>>>> unacceptable.
>>>>>>> > What is your guidance?  We have others willing to step up?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Neil
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Richard Greenberg, CISSP
>>>>>>> Board of Directors, OWASP Los Angeles, www.owaspla.org<http://www.appsecusa.org/>
>>>>>>> Board of Directors, ISSA Los Angeles, www.issa-la.org<http://www.appsecusa.org/>
>>>>>>> OWASP Global Conference Committee
>>>>>>> LinkedIn:  http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardagreenberg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>
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-- 
Executive Director
OWASP Foundation

sarah.baso at owasp.org
+1.312.869.2779
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